Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA22646 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:07:33 GMT Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020115182351.00a44ec0@mail.clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:00:58 -0500 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Ray Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com> Subject: the earth revolves around the sun Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hey Wade
Here we go one last time on this topic
>If someone tells you that "The earth revolves around the sun" in Japanese
> >they have behaved quite differently than they would if that told you that
> >same thing in English.
>
>No argument. But they have performed this meme in a cultural vacuum- I
>don't speak japanese. Their meme cannot be replicated by me.
>
> >You would label these two separate memes.
>
>I would. (At least right now, now that I'm on my meme-is-behavior-only
>kick.)
>
> >If you
> >tell someone that "The earth revolves around the sun in English" and they
> >pass this information along to someone else in Japanese there would be no
> >correlation under your proposed memetic theory and no passage of memes at
> >all.
>
>If I performed this meme in english, I would do so only knowing that my
>audience understands english to a sufficient degree, and is prepared to
>translate my performance, to the best of their ability, for a japanese
>audience. I hope that, if I've performed this meme with enough accuracy
>and simplicity, that further behaviors of this audience will be fairly
>complete replications of this, and thus my meme lives. It ain't the same
>meme, as no two things are identical, but, within memetic parameters, the
>meme replicates the most that gets understood for replication the best.
>
> >Haven't we been around this circle way too many times now?
The problem is there can be no concept of translation with a knowledge
based idea under a behavior only version of memetics. There is no
corresponding behavior. You have to recognize that what is being
translated is meaning. The words "The earth revolves around the sun" in
Japanese probably sound nothing like the words in English. And until you
point to corresponding behavior then translation becomes a meaningless
term. What is translated is meaning or a mentally based meme.
Lets stick with English for a moment.
Which of these phrases memetically is closest to when you say "The earth
revolves around the sun."
a. Terra circles Sol
b. the planet next inside of Mars spins around a G type star.
c. the large body with the humans on it orbits the gravity based fusion
energy generator.
d. The berth devolves around the bun.
If we adopt behavior based meme approach then since "the berth devolves
around the bun" involves using the mouth in a similar way then you would
have to pick d.
Actually though it is a trick question. The real answer is none of the
above. The key is 'say'. These are written phrases and under a behavior
based memetics you would be unable to relate any of them to a spoken "The
earth revolves around the sun because the behavior involved in writing is
not the same as the behavior involved in speaking.
There are clearly problems that a behaviorally based memetics has in
dealing with language and knowledge based memes. A memetics that is
incapable of looking examining and recognizing the similarities between
differently worded written statements, statements made in different
languages, and written statements and spoken words is of limited
value. When dealing with memes that can be transmitted easily through
imitation a behavioral memetics might be a more accurate method of
collecting data but otherwise I see no reason to unnecessarily impose a
filter this limited on the field.
Ray Recchia
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