Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA03526 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:27:24 +0100 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:47:35 +0100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: the conscious universe Message-ID: <20001007164735.A799@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A7A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJIEDHFIAA.richard@brodietech.com> <20001007103535.A501@reborntechnology.co.uk> <007d01c03065$a5671400$d663b8d0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <007d01c03065$a5671400$d663b8d0@default>; from debivort@umd5.umd.edu on Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 09:51:03AM -0400 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 09:51:03AM -0400, Lawrence de Bivort wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
>
> > On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 07:08:48AM -0700, Richard Brodie wrote:
> > > ... the meme per its Dawkins/Dennett/Brodie
> > > definition, as mental information...
> >
> > While not necessarily wanting to open this argument up again, I have,
> > as usual, to point out that "mental information" implies a subjective
> > phenomenon, while Dawkins and Dennett view memes as objective, neural
> > information patterns.
>
> I don't see a contradiction here: all 'ideas' held by a person must have
> some neural basis, if our understanding of how brains work is remotely
> accurate.
If you'd read on, you'd have seen that's my view too. You might consider
what I'm doing here to be nit-picking, but I think it's important.
A few people deny that memes are objective entities. To Dawkins and
Dennett, I believe, that's all they are. The fact that you and I are
agreed they have subjective and objective aspects is somewhat irrelevant.
> By the term 'information' I take Richard to mean that the idea has
> cognitive or behavioral significance, i.e. that the idea makes a difference
> ("Information is the difference that makes the difference." - G. Bateson).
It's not Richard's own view, but what he's imputing to Dawkins and
Dennett that I'm concerned with.
> The neural basis of ideas, I would suggest, is no more significant for memes
> than it is for non-memetic ideas, and so I find the neural elements of memes
> not particularly or intrinsically interesting when it comes to studying
> memes and their workings.
What you and I find interesting is not necessarily important, but this
is supposedly a scholarly forum, so I don't think such inaccuracies as
saying that Dawkins and Dennett would view memes as "mental information"
should be allowed to pass.
-- Robin Faichney=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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