Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA02909 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:51:50 +0100 Message-ID: <007d01c03065$a5671400$d663b8d0@default> From: "Lawrence de Bivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A7A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJIEDHFIAA.richard@brodietech.com> <20001007103535.A501@reborntechnology.co.uk> Subject: Re: the conscious universe Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 09:51:03 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 07:08:48AM -0700, Richard Brodie wrote:
> > ... the meme per its Dawkins/Dennett/Brodie
> > definition, as mental information...
>
> While not necessarily wanting to open this argument up again, I have,
> as usual, to point out that "mental information" implies a subjective
> phenomenon, while Dawkins and Dennett view memes as objective, neural
> information patterns.
I don't see a contradiction here: all 'ideas' held by a person must have
some neural basis, if our understanding of how brains work is remotely
accurate. By the term 'information' I take Richard to mean that the idea has
cognitive or behavioral significance, i.e. that the idea makes a difference
("Information is the difference that makes the difference." - G. Bateson).
The neural basis of ideas, I would suggest, is no more significant for memes
than it is for non-memetic ideas, and so I find the neural elements of memes
not particularly or intrinsically interesting when it comes to studying
memes and their workings.
<snip>
> I think few would seriously suggest that artifacts are memes, but
> artifactual encoding of memes is another matter, and can be considered
> a subset of behavioural encoding.
Agreed, artifacts need not have memetic content or capability, but can.
Sometimes the memetic content --of those artifacts that have it--is there
accidentally, sometimes it is installed there deliberately by those who have
created the artifacts (e.g. B. Fuller's dymaxion concepts, or P. Soleri's
Arcosanti-related ideas).
Lawrence de Bivort
The Memetics Group
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