Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA05947 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:54:48 GMT Message-Id: <200003030152.UAA03283@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:56:43 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new line: what's the point? In-reply-to: <00030216110501.03748@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: new line: what's the point?
Date sent: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:00:18 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >> On Wed, 01 Mar 2000, Soc Microlab 2 wrote:
> >> >robin said:
> >> >
> >> >My point is this: given all the existing concepts, such as meaning, and the whole semiotic toolbag, what
> >> >purpose does the meme concept serve? What place is there for a "selfish" replicator in a world of
> >> >consciously communicating individual minds? I thought memetics was an alternative scenario.
> >> >Otherwise,why bother with memes at all?
> >> >
> >Memetics and semiotics, as I noted before, are complementary in
> >the sense that semiotics is synchronic, describing the static and
> >fixed signifier-signifying-signified-code-carrier-message system, like
> >a sharp snapshot, while memetics is diachronic, describing the
> >evolution, transmission/reception/replication and mutation of the
> >messages contained in such encoded messages, like a
> >(somewhat) blurry movie. Obviously, this being my position, your
> >charge of neochristian fundamentalism is absurd (BTW, I'm pagan
> >in outlook due to their ecological and feminist leanings, but not
> >fundie about it).
>
> I didn't say you were a "neochristian fundamentalist" (whatever that is), I
> said you take the same line on memetics that creationists take on genetics.
> Actually, that's not true, because they invoke a deus ex machina to "explain"
> the origin, or design, of genes, whereas you invoke a deus in machina to
> "explain" the selection of memes. But your tactic is about as scientific as
> their's. Or else, answer this: do you or don't you deny the possibility of
> mechanistic memetic explanations?
>
Not if it involves the excision of meaning (semantics), intention or
selfawareness, but I do not believe it does. There is "good"
reductionism (which eliminates the inessential a la Occam's Razor)
and "bad" reductionism (which eliminates essential components of
the system it purports to schematize and therefore ends up with a
schema which is distorted to the point of useless nonrelationality
to that which it purports to represent). Mechanistic can be
atomistic (which cannot grasp synergistically emergent qualities)
or holistic (which can grasp them). In my opinion, your tack is a
"bad" reductionism which attempts the identical atomistic fallacy
which prevented Shakyamuni from apprehending the self, and
therefore misrepresents the memetics it purports to schematize.
There is no "deux" in my view, machine or otherwise, just the
emergence of multiple individual signifying and intentional
subjectivities (us mainly), a myriad of unique and similar but not
identical fitness landscapes in which memetic selection, mutation
and evolution can find cognitive environmental niches to transpire.
P. S. The science and the philosophy are on my side; your karma
IS your dogma.
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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