Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA05906 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:40:32 GMT Message-Id: <200003030138.UAA04848@mail5.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:42:23 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <B0000435476@htcompmail.htcomp.net> References: <200003020535.AAA10143@mail3.lig.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:45:03 -0500
To: joedees@bellsouth.net
From: "Mark M. Mills" <mmills@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
> Joe,
>
> >My purpose in sending you the paper was so you could, from perusing it,
> >better understand where I am coming from in the positions that I take on
> list.
>
> Ok. I can understand that. Thank you.
>
> >One thing that I intend to bring to that thread is the contention that
> >fleeting culture is impossible, which is why I insist upon there being
> >more than episodic evidence to ascribe culture to babboons. This
> >is the reason I mention rock modification, rock
> >transportation/retention, and toolkit behavior. For memetic
> >evolution/mutation to occur within a culture, the culture must
> >perdure. It cannot be something that occurs briefly, then
> >disappears - it has to last, and be an enduring part of the world of
> >those to whom culture is ascribed. The substrate of any change
> >must be a stability which gives some identity to WHAT is
> >changing; thus I contend that cultural manifestations must be
> >frequent, if not ubiquitous, for culture to be considered inherent in a
> >species, and for there to be something present to mutate or evolve.
> >Also, memetic transmission/reception must be more than mere
> >monkey see, monkey do; there must be the intention to teach and
> >to learn noninstinctual behaviors. We need to find baboons intent
> >on teaching other baboons, who are intent on learning from them,
> >how to throw rocks. We also need to see variations between
> >babboon bands in HOW they throw rocks, as we see between
> >chimp bands in how they create termite wands, to verify that the
> >observed behavior is mutating into various forms between bands.
>
> This looks interesting, but I'd rather reply in the thread. Can you put
> this on the list?
>
> mark
>
>
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