Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA28779 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:38:13 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459A1@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:35:53 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Thanks for this, and the links.
Regionalism (or I suppose one could use the term localisation as opposed to
globalisation) has been very evident in the UK over the last few years with
political devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The emphasis
now seems to be to try and remain united by acknowledging, rather than
trying to suppress, differing identities within the UK. Two problems have
emerged, however. First, my experience as an Englishman living in Scotland
is that the Scottish Parliament is seen by many here as simply a stepping
stone to independence, certainly by the Scottish Nationalist Party, and
Scottish notions of national identity are very strong. Second, English
nationalism has not been overtly voiced for many years since it has been the
dominant thread to British identity (one of the many reasons for the
disgruntlement of Welsh, Scots and Irish over the years), but now that these
other national regions have been more overtly recognised and empowered,
suddenly there has been a resurgence of English nationalism, which some
argue may seem the break up of the UK altogether. A lesser, but related
problem, has been that of the Cornish people, in the South-West of England,
who also regard themselves as an historically distinct nation, they even
have that most powerful of national memes a flag (like Sweden's flag only
with a black background and a white cross) but I doubt much will come of
that.
I think memes definitely play a part as soon as one goes beyond the level of
ancestral community size, which I assume wouldn't have been much more than a
few families, barely reaching three figures if that. Binding together
communities of even only a few thousand people requires some kind of social
cement, and the larger the community the more symbolic that social cement
becomes (perhaps?).
For example, ancient Athenian democracy could function by limiting
citizenship to a size where (in principle) all citizens could meet and
discuss the direction of the community, and demagogues like Pericles could
manipulate an entire community directly through skillful rhetoric.
Maintaining a mass society cannot be done in the same way, and therein lies
its central weakness, in that as soon as citizens are given access to
alternative symoblic representations, questions can arise and that unifed
image can be disrupted, which of course many people don't want and thus
struggle violenty against. Why, for example, are American creationists so
vitriolic in their efforts to prevent evolutionary theory being taught in
schools? Is it simply a matter of fundamentalists evangelism, or given
America's tendency to regard itself as God's own nation, is there an element
of concern about the social cement of America being eroded by ideas like
evolution?
One could draw a parallel with the French theorists so successfully
deconstructed by Sokal & Bricmont in 'Intellectual Impostures' (1998), which
a colleague has just let me borrow (probably as a warning to me to be
careful when trying to find common ground between science and social
science). Quite aside from the abuse of science these thinkers display,
there is another evident thread that is the denial of France's declining
international significance. It seems very evident in theories that deny
history (Baudrillard saying the gulf war never happened) or deny reality in
absolutist relativism (Irigary saying E equals mc squared is sexist). That
is not to say that their ideas are all rubbish or irrelevant, indeed to some
extent they prove the hypothesis about the historicity inherent in theory,
which is an important point that some of them are actually writing about.
Their views reflect those of people living in a particular time and place
and represent their efforts to try and deal with the world they find
themselves in, and they can only do so by abstracting it to the point where
their views become self-sustaining and empirically untestable [Incidentally
without wishing to set him off again, IMO I think Chris Lofting does the
same thing with his theory].
Sorry, drifting off topic again. I think what I'm trying to say is that
there is an inherent weakness in the notion of community (of whatever size)
when it is constructed out of memes- it is alwasy vulnerable to competing
memes. Japan might be a good example here, since it has been able to adapt
itself very rapidly and successfully in the post-war period (at least
economically anyway), might this have something to do with the homogeneity
of the ethnic population of Japan which is very high? Practices and
attitudes have changed to varying degrees, but notions of Japanese identity
remain extremely strong (and probably, although I'm not sure exactly how you
would measure it, stronger than in countries such as the UK and the USA).
I wouldn't claim this to be a sole or determining factor, but in a way what
you're talking about in terms of cities is about the physical environment in
which you live, and the people you live amongst. I assume that people in
Antwerp and Ghent have different accents, for example (as they certainly do
in London and Manchester), which is a clear physical indicator or belonging
or otherwise. Also, as you mention, cities can have very different
environmental feels, compare the "easier" lifestyles of San Francisco and LA
to the harsher northern cities of Chicago and New York. Coastal cities feel
very different to inland ones etc. etc.
I must admit, although I've lived away from my home town now for about 10
years, I stil feel like I'm going home whenever I go back there. This may
be because I'm from a town in Kent (SE-England) and I have increasingly
moved north in following an academic career, currently being in Scotland
(family and friends joke that I'll probably end up in Rekjavik in my next
job- my wife doesn't see the funny side!).
Anyway, I'm rambling again.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 8:43 pm
> To: memetics
> Subject: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !?
>
> Vincent,
>
> Glad to hear that there is nothing wrong with yours and mine connection to
>
> the list. So will speed up the discussion, the trail as you called
> about...
>
> Your last post did ring a bell, it is an issue which is not only seen in
> England
> or in Amerca. One of the major problems with an united Europe is that
> despite
> all the borders seem gone, that new borders are created.
> That is, what politicians here in Belgium call, an Europe of Regions, for
> example,
> Flanders, and in England, f. e. Dorchester_ the notion of the nation is
> outstripped.
>
> But, like you mentioned in your post, like in America those regions will
> fall
> apart aswell, that is Flanders will split into the region round Antwerp,
> Ghent,
> etc, that due minor cultural and language differences.
> These differences are already there, like people from Antwerp are not so
> tolerant as people in Ghent towards immigrants, that due that Antwerp has
> a
> greater harbor...f.e. The behaviour of people of Antwerp is different of
> that of me,
> living in Ghent, as a product of the history of the city, ( remerber
> Imperor Charles
> V and what he did towards the people of Ghent) well that knowledge is
> still in-
> side me...I am more of a rebel, I will opposite intolerance.
>
> Of course, not all of the people of Ghent are like that, but anyway, if
> you walk
> down the streets of cities like Ghent, Brussels, Antwerp, London,
> Manchester,...
> you have the feeling that they are all different. It is that feeling you
> have to catch,
> to make a common notion of city- hood or in that respect nation- hood.
>
> That is why, I suppose the notion of britishness is increasingly
> challenged, your
> towns are changing due the large communities of immigrants. The fact that
> Eng-
> land once was an empire, and so had a nation- hood like notion, increases
> the
> process_you all have the feeling you are loosing something (nation-hood)
> where in fact England becomes more divers and in fact more region- like
> If that is a good point I don 't know, but in order to re-stage the
> nation- hood-
> feeling, I think you have to find a point where the mixure of cultures can
> conjoin_
> something like the pain after Lady Di died...
>
> Such situations can give a nation a notion of nation- hood ,but the
> problem with
> such things is that they don 't last for long. Rebuilding nation- hood-
> like be-
> haviour is IMHO not possible, due, not only through social causes, but
> also by
> memetic/ genetic causes. The fact alone of individuality gives a nation a
> hard
> blow...
> Language problems, like here in Belgium or like in Canada devides nations
> and
> peoples...
> Religion is another, and I susepct there are more...
>
> That 's it for now...
>
> By the way, Vincent, there is a program currently running on BBC World,
> called "Creation, science friction the historical struggle between the
> belief system of
> religion and science ". Saturday 12 August was the first episode, next
> Saturday,
> I think the second. Check that out, it is really interesting to watch how
> religion
> influences American thought. Very strange, indeed !!
>
> Also, relevant to that program check out, Lamarckism in American thought,
> that is
> at www.hcc.hawaii.edu, you can link from there to Deviancy Lamarckism.
>
> The reason for that is that those pages give a better insight in what
> happens in
> American society, the contrast between Lamarckism and Darwinism clarifies
> a lot though.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
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