Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA00289 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:31:18 +0100 Message-ID: <001501c00764$49567220$5701bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: "memetics" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:28:05 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Vincent, some ramblings...
>
> > A lesser, but related
> > problem, has been that of the Cornish people, in the South-West of
> England,
> > who also regard themselves as an historically distinct nation, they even
> > have that most powerful of national memes a flag (like Sweden's flag
only
> > with a black background and a white cross) but I doubt much will come of
> > that.
>
> << Same thing is happening in Holland where the Frisian people regard
> themselves more Frisian than European. They still speak their own
language,
> even they have their television shows where problems regarding their being
> are been argued. I think even they have their flag, though...
> I think in the future that the three most nothern provinces (that is
> Frisian-land,
> Groningen en Dhrente) will seperate themselves from the rest of Holland.
> Not only because of cultural differences but also because of economical
> benefits (gas, agriculture,etc.) Regions are beginning to understand their
> value for the greater good and they want for their efforts more money,
more
> political or social rights...In the long term, a dangerous way...>>
>
>
> > Why, for example, are American creationists so
> > vitriolic in their efforts to prevent evolutionary theory being taught
in
> > schools? Is it simply a matter of fundamentalists evangelism, or given
> > America's tendency to regard itself as God's own nation, is there an
> element
> > of concern about the social cement of America being eroded by ideas like
> > evolution?
>
> << That is just the issue of that program on BBC World which I mentioned
in
> my previous post. The problem is not one of todays generations, but goes a
> long way back.At the very early start of Darwinism America was against it.
> You can read this in the link on one of my previous posts...
> That www.hcc.hawaii.edu and you can link than further on...
>
> In that respect the following question,
>
> If we all suppose Darwin was right, and we gave him all the regards that
> goes
> with it_and on the other hand half of the worlds population thinks he got
it
> all
> wrong,...where is the benefit of Darwinism then !?
> There is some contradiction somewhere, no !?
>
> > It seems very evident in theories that deny
> > history (Baudrillard saying the gulf war never happened) or deny reality
> in
> > absolutist relativism (Irigary saying E equals mc squared is sexist).
> That
> > is not to say that their ideas are all rubbish or irrelevant, indeed to
> some
> > extent they prove the hypothesis about the historicity inherent in
> theory,
> > which is an important point that some of them are actually writing
about.
> > Their views reflect those of people living in a particular time and
place
> > and represent their efforts to try and deal with the world they find
> > themselves in, and they can only do so by abstracting it to the point
> where
> > their views become self-sustaining and empirically untestable
> [Incidentally
> > without wishing to set him off again, IMO I think Chris Lofting does the
> > same thing with his theory].
>
> << Baudrillard is mentioned in some Review papers of Susan Greenfields
> program Brain Story. Adepts of the Christian faith argue with the same
> words against Professor Greenfields statements. That is Baudrillard
> is used by both sides to get it right. IMHO, surely you can use a theory
for
> the benefit you want to obtain, but you do more harm with interpretating
the
> theory than just following it, in doing that you scoop out the mere sense
of
> what is said...what is the point then anyway to set up a theory if
everybody
> else
> is using it for their own convience !?
> Just rambling aroung here, though...
> But if you want to talk about the issue you mentioned above, please by all
> means...it is of great interest...see my previous post, I did begun...>>
> For the reviews please check out
>
> www.damaris.org/dcsc/readingroom/2000/brainstory/brainstory 1.htm
> There is also a review on Pinkers book somewhere in there...
>
> > Sorry, drifting off topic again. I think what I'm trying to say is that
> > there is an inherent weakness in the notion of community (of whatever
> size)
> > when it is constructed out of memes- it is alwasy vulnerable to
competing
> > memes. Japan might be a good example here, since it has been able to
> adapt
> > itself very rapidly and successfully in the post-war period (at least
> > economically anyway), might this have something to do with the
homogeneity
> > of the ethnic population of Japan which is very high? Practices and
> > attitudes have changed to varying degrees, but notions of Japanese
> identity
> > remain extremely strong (and probably, although I'm not sure exactly how
> you
> > would measure it, stronger than in countries such as the UK and the
USA).
>
> << I think the determining factor was the atomb bomb, still each year the
> Japanese people feel the pain and the heartburn. Like in England I said
> after
> Lady Di died, but you can 't get that every year...We have to find a
factor
> by which we are all connected...like in Belgium the White Mars, but like I
> said that is something of one day...
> I think what Americans keeps together is JFK, in some sense the nation was
> decapitated, in a sense the loss is still working through...that is, each
> president
> is compared with JFK, and each president candidate wishes to take some of
> JFK legacy into his of hers campaign...see Clinton about that, in many
ways
> !!
> You can argue with the same principle about Father Stalin in the USSR,
> people are still afraid when they hear his name...on the other hand the
> Russian
> Orthodox Church declared Nicolas I and his family sacred, so...it is how
you
> look at it I suppose...
>
> With the murder on JFK, America lost somehow a part of itself and the
> country is searching for that bit ever since...seperate groups are
searching
> in
> their own direction with their own means and goals. I hope for them they
> will find what they are looking for, but I doubt it !!
> IMHO I think the search will eventually devided the USA because,
memetical,
> the seperate groups have outlived eachother, in a sense they are all kinds
> of
> different people...>>
>
> > Anyway, go on rambling !!
>
> Many regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are) much more
>
>
>
>
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