Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA00355 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:31:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c00761$a55c84e0$180bbed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: "memetics" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:08:14 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Vincent, some ramblings...
> >
> > > A lesser, but related
> > > problem, has been that of the Cornish people, in the South-West of
> > England,
> > > who also regard themselves as an historically distinct nation, they
even
> > > have that most powerful of national memes a flag (like Sweden's flag
> only
> > > with a black background and a white cross) but I doubt much will come
of
> > > that.
> >
> > << Same thing is happening in Holland where the Frisian people regard
> > themselves more Frisian than European. They still speak their own
> language,
> > even they have their television shows where problems regarding their
being
> > are been argued. I think even they have their flag, though...
> > I think in the future that the three most nothern provinces (that is
> > Frisian-land,
> > Groningen en Dhrente) will seperate themselves from the rest of Holland.
> > Not only because of cultural differences but also because of economical
> > benefits (gas, agriculture,etc.) Regions are beginning to understand
their
> > value for the greater good and they want for their efforts more money,
> more
> > political or social rights...In the long term, a dangerous way...>>
> >
> >
> > > Why, for example, are American creationists so
> > > vitriolic in their efforts to prevent evolutionary theory being taught
> in
> > > schools? Is it simply a matter of fundamentalists evangelism, or
given
> > > America's tendency to regard itself as God's own nation, is there an
> > element
> > > of concern about the social cement of America being eroded by ideas
like
> > > evolution?
> >
> > << That is just the issue of that program on BBC World which I mentioned
> in
> > my previous post. The problem is not one of todays generations, but goes
a
> > long way back.At the very early start of Darwinism America was against
it.
> > You can read this in the link on one of my previous posts...
> > That www.hcc.hawaii.edu and you can link than further on...
> >
> > In that respect the following question,
> >
> > If we all suppose Darwin was right, and we gave him all the regards that
> > goes
> > with it_and on the other hand half of the worlds population thinks he
got
> it
> > all
> > wrong,...where is the benefit of Darwinism then !?
> > There is some contradiction somewhere, no !?
> >
> > > It seems very evident in theories that deny
> > > history (Baudrillard saying the gulf war never happened) or deny
reality
> > in
> > > absolutist relativism (Irigary saying E equals mc squared is sexist).
> > That
> > > is not to say that their ideas are all rubbish or irrelevant, indeed
to
> > some
> > > extent they prove the hypothesis about the historicity inherent in
> > theory,
> > > which is an important point that some of them are actually writing
> about.
> > > Their views reflect those of people living in a particular time and
> place
> > > and represent their efforts to try and deal with the world they find
> > > themselves in, and they can only do so by abstracting it to the point
> > where
> > > their views become self-sustaining and empirically untestable
> > [Incidentally
> > > without wishing to set him off again, IMO I think Chris Lofting does
the
> > > same thing with his theory].
> >
> > << Baudrillard is mentioned in some Review papers of Susan Greenfields
> > program Brain Story. Adepts of the Christian faith argue with the same
> > words against Professor Greenfields statements. That is Baudrillard
> > is used by both sides to get it right. IMHO, surely you can use a theory
> for
> > the benefit you want to obtain, but you do more harm with interpretating
> the
> > theory than just following it, in doing that you scoop out the mere
sense
> of
> > what is said...what is the point then anyway to set up a theory if
> everybody
> > else
> > is using it for their own convience !?
> > Just rambling aroung here, though...
> > But if you want to talk about the issue you mentioned above, please by
all
> > means...it is of great interest...see my previous post, I did begun...>>
> > For the reviews please check out
> >
> > www.damaris.org/dcsc/readingroom/2000/brainstory/brainstory 1.htm
> > There is also a review on Pinkers book somewhere in there...
> >
> > > Sorry, drifting off topic again. I think what I'm trying to say is
that
> > > there is an inherent weakness in the notion of community (of whatever
> > size)
> > > when it is constructed out of memes- it is alwasy vulnerable to
> competing
> > > memes. Japan might be a good example here, since it has been able to
> > adapt
> > > itself very rapidly and successfully in the post-war period (at least
> > > economically anyway), might this have something to do with the
> homogeneity
> > > of the ethnic population of Japan which is very high? Practices and
> > > attitudes have changed to varying degrees, but notions of Japanese
> > identity
> > > remain extremely strong (and probably, although I'm not sure exactly
how
> > you
> > > would measure it, stronger than in countries such as the UK and the
> USA).
> >
> > << I think the determining factor was the atomb bomb, still each year
the
> > Japanese people feel the pain and the heartburn. Like in England I said
> > after
> > Lady Di died, but you can 't get that every year...We have to find a
> factor
> > by which we are all connected...like in Belgium the White Mars, but like
I
> > said that is something of one day...
> > I think what Americans keeps together is JFK, in some sense the nation
was
> > decapitated, in a sense the loss is still working through...that is,
each
> > president
> > is compared with JFK, and each president candidate wishes to take some
of
> > JFK legacy into his of hers campaign...see Clinton about that, in many
> ways
> > !!
> > You can argue with the same principle about Father Stalin in the USSR,
> > people are still afraid when they hear his name...on the other hand the
> > Russian
> > Orthodox Church declared Nicolas I and his family sacred, so...it is how
> you
> > look at it I suppose...
> >
> > With the murder on JFK, America lost somehow a part of itself and the
> > country is searching for that bit ever since...seperate groups are
> searching
> > in
> > their own direction with their own means and goals. I hope for them they
> > will find what they are looking for, but I doubt it !!
> > IMHO I think the search will eventually devided the USA because,
> memetical,
> > the seperate groups have outlived eachother, in a sense they are all
kinds
> > of
> > different people...>>
> >
> > > Anyway, go on rambling !!
> >
> > Many regards,
> >
> > Kenneth
> >
> > ( I am, because we are) much more
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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