Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA00371 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:31:44 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c006f1$df236e20$e100bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459A1@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:48:20 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent, some ramblings...
> A lesser, but related
> problem, has been that of the Cornish people, in the South-West of
England,
> who also regard themselves as an historically distinct nation, they even
> have that most powerful of national memes a flag (like Sweden's flag only
> with a black background and a white cross) but I doubt much will come of
> that.
<< Same thing is happening in Holland where the Frisian people regard
themselves more Frisian than European. They still speak their own language,
even they have their television shows where problems regarding their being
are been argued. I think even they have their flag, though...
I think in the future that the three most nothern provinces (that is
Frisian-land,
Groningen en Dhrente) will seperate themselves from the rest of Holland.
Not only because of cultural differences but also because of economical
benefits (gas, agriculture,etc.) Regions are beginning to understand their
value for the greater good and they want for their efforts more money, more
political or social rights...In the long term, a dangerous way...>>
> Why, for example, are American creationists so
> vitriolic in their efforts to prevent evolutionary theory being taught in
> schools? Is it simply a matter of fundamentalists evangelism, or given
> America's tendency to regard itself as God's own nation, is there an
element
> of concern about the social cement of America being eroded by ideas like
> evolution?
<< That is just the issue of that program on BBC World which I mentioned in
my previous post. The problem is not one of todays generations, but goes a
long way back.At the very early start of Darwinism America was against it.
You can read this in the link on one of my previous posts...
That www.hcc.hawaii.edu and you can link than further on...
In that respect the following question,
If we all suppose Darwin was right, and we gave him all the regards that
goes
with it_and on the other hand half of the worlds population thinks he got it
all
wrong,...where is the benefit of Darwinism then !?
There is some contradiction somewhere, no !?
> It seems very evident in theories that deny
> history (Baudrillard saying the gulf war never happened) or deny reality
in
> absolutist relativism (Irigary saying E equals mc squared is sexist).
That
> is not to say that their ideas are all rubbish or irrelevant, indeed to
some
> extent they prove the hypothesis about the historicity inherent in
theory,
> which is an important point that some of them are actually writing about.
> Their views reflect those of people living in a particular time and place
> and represent their efforts to try and deal with the world they find
> themselves in, and they can only do so by abstracting it to the point
where
> their views become self-sustaining and empirically untestable
[Incidentally
> without wishing to set him off again, IMO I think Chris Lofting does the
> same thing with his theory].
<< Baudrillard is mentioned in some Review papers of Susan Greenfields
program Brain Story. Adepts of the Christian faith argue with the same
words against Professor Greenfields statements. That is Baudrillard
is used by both sides to get it right. IMHO, surely you can use a theory for
the benefit you want to obtain, but you do more harm with interpretating the
theory than just following it, in doing that you scoop out the mere sense of
what is said...what is the point then anyway to set up a theory if everybody
else
is using it for their own convience !?
Just rambling aroung here, though...
But if you want to talk about the issue you mentioned above, please by all
means...it is of great interest...see my previous post, I did begun...>>
For the reviews please check out
www.damaris.org/dcsc/readingroom/2000/brainstory/brainstory 1.htm
There is also a review on Pinkers book somewhere in there...
> Sorry, drifting off topic again. I think what I'm trying to say is that
> there is an inherent weakness in the notion of community (of whatever
size)
> when it is constructed out of memes- it is alwasy vulnerable to competing
> memes. Japan might be a good example here, since it has been able to
adapt
> itself very rapidly and successfully in the post-war period (at least
> economically anyway), might this have something to do with the homogeneity
> of the ethnic population of Japan which is very high? Practices and
> attitudes have changed to varying degrees, but notions of Japanese
identity
> remain extremely strong (and probably, although I'm not sure exactly how
you
> would measure it, stronger than in countries such as the UK and the USA).
<< I think the determining factor was the atomb bomb, still each year the
Japanese people feel the pain and the heartburn. Like in England I said
after
Lady Di died, but you can 't get that every year...We have to find a factor
by which we are all connected...like in Belgium the White Mars, but like I
said that is something of one day...
I think what Americans keeps together is JFK, in some sense the nation was
decapitated, in a sense the loss is still working through...that is, each
president
is compared with JFK, and each president candidate wishes to take some of
JFK legacy into his of hers campaign...see Clinton about that, in many ways
!!
You can argue with the same principle about Father Stalin in the USSR,
people are still afraid when they hear his name...on the other hand the
Russian
Orthodox Church declared Nicolas I and his family sacred, so...it is how you
look at it I suppose...
With the murder on JFK, America lost somehow a part of itself and the
country is searching for that bit ever since...seperate groups are searching
in
their own direction with their own means and goals. I hope for them they
will find what they are looking for, but I doubt it !!
IMHO I think the search will eventually devided the USA because, memetical,
the seperate groups have outlived eachother, in a sense they are all kinds
of
different people...>>
> Anyway, go on rambling !!
Many regards,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are) much more
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Aug 16 2000 - 10:33:40 BST