Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA09162 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:16:11 +0100 From: "Chris Lofting" <ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:30:28 +1000 Message-ID: <LPBBICPHCJJBPJGHGMCICENFCGAA.ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20000620134800.AAA1824@camailp.harvard.edu@[128.103.125.215]> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Wade T.Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 June 2000 11:47
> To: memetics list
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
> On 06/20/00 09:43, Chris Lofting said this-
>
>
> >Some of the material is dangerous in that I can easily send someone home
> >with mental 'gun' if I am not careful about how I do things.
>
> Could you supply any referential material to get me to accept this as
> anything other than a specious claim of ego-biased influence-peddling?
>
? dont get you other than you took the use of "I" literally meaning me.. I
did not mean it that way, you can replace it with 'you' if you wish.
> Like, showing me the smoking gun...?
Have a look at ANY modern NLP text, especially those that train you to
create light trance states. There has been an ongoing discussion on one
paper on the net re using NLP to 'score' with women, see alt.psychology.nlp
newsgroup, should still be around.
There are a lot of 'new age' groups training people (sales staff etc) in NLP
or else using it as the training.
The problem re the gun is that if one person in a relationship gets into
this and the other does not then there is scope for conflict; anyone can
learn (if they pay or work through the books available) and some of the
processes (e.g. setting anchors where touch or look sets of a string of
associations, or putting someone in a trance state) if not managed correctly
can lead to problems.
I cannot become a psychoanalyst etc by reading a book and putting-up a sign,
in NLP there are methods used which can be learnt very quickly that can
create the impression that you can become a psychotherapist very quickly (if
not fully accredited by the state, but then you just open up as a business
concern involved in motivation etc).
The NLP groups claim phobia cure in minutes, although they have extended
that to 1-2hours since people did not believe (!) that it could work that
fast.
This is not fortune telling, it is serious stuff and well worth
understanding if you can get past some of the bullshit that often goes with
it; it is early days and like the early days in the nuclear power industry,
all is just peachy.
My point re 'they have no idea what they are dealing with' is related to my
work on dichotomisations where ANY discipline founded on dichotomisations
will create a sense of value, they think it is the words but it isnt, it is
the invariant patterns of emotion behind the words, linked to the METHOD,
that gives these systems a sense of value and it is the playing with these
patterns that give you positive results.
The advantage of NLP is it relates directly to sensory experiences and the
manipulation of the memories of those experiences to enble you to 're-write'
your history, to defuse intense moments by making you realise that you had
the resources to deal with things; you dont need to spend years discussing
your relationship with your parents nore do you have to live solely
dependent on drugs, there is a different path available but it is still
being built and as with all pioneering areas it attracts the cons.
I am not an NLP graduate etc my interest (for over 20 years) is to the use
of dichotomisations and the overall structure. I have applied it in my
profession (computers) and it has worked in gaining rapport as well as in
GUI design etc and team management; in simple terms it makes you think about
the structure/function of other minds but in terms not tied to ancient
belief concepts but in terms you can relate to, how you see, you hear, you
feel.
I think some of the material should be part of the education system, not in
being used to manipulate the students but to teach the students how to
communicate more efficiently and especially about the different
sensory-derived biases we develop and the choices we have.
The Meta-Model, a way to GATHER information, and the Erickson model, a way
of DISSEMINATING information, are very useful and can definitely aid in
teaching both gathering and disseminating data.
There is a list of refs at the end of my I Ching ref list,
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/irefs.html
There are some newer refs and NLP is now being combined with General
Semantics, there are a couple of books around mostly by Michael Hall.
I MUST emphasise that the interesting stuff is behind the expressions :-)
For a link to the MBTI and the I Ching etc see my pages on the MBTI and
Robert Dilt's work (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/mbti4.html )
Best,
Chris.
>
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