Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA04202 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 25 May 2000 11:39:20 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745874@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:37:23 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Sorry, Chuck you've misunderstood me there over aberration. I meant it in
the sense that you described suicide cults as failures because the behaviour
will end with those that do it.
I also do understand the social context of seppuku which is directly related
to questions of honour, status and loyalty (when Hirohito died a few years
ago, they had terrible trouble in Japan trying to stop lots of war veterans
committing seppuku).
What is interesting to me, is that the way you describe Japanese society
could apply to most feudal societies so why did Japan develop a system of
honour-related ritual suicide, when others, where honour has also always
been very important (e.g. the entire notion of chivalry), did not? Or
rather, not 'why', but what was the catalyst for this particular behaviour
to spread in Japanese society, but not in others?
What do you think of the right-left, left-right writing question?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: chuck
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 1:57 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
>
>
> seppuku
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > Isn't that what Chuck is arguing though, that sociobiology offers a
> simple
> > answer to such questions by evaluating all behaviours in terms of
> genetic
> > advantage/utility in particular environmental contexts?
>
> I am not arguing that it is a simple answer; I am arguing that it is as
> simple
> as basic evolutionary theory -- which in practice is quite complex.
>
> > My precise point is that things like seppuku can't be simply explained
> by
> > sociobiology, indeed if at all, other than as an abberation,
>
> "Abberation"? Have you looked closely at it? Do you understand Japanese
> society
> at all? I sort of doubt it. I suspect it seems an aberration to you
> because it
> certainly would be in any western society.
>
> I don't know a lot about seppuku, but it seems to have something to do
> with
> saving the reputation. One reason, for example, was to atone for failure
> to
> carry out duties - which might include losing a battle. There is
> absolutely
> nothing difficult to understand about it. The fundamental difference
> between
> many oriental societies and most Western societies is the importance of
> reputation. Because each extended family in the former tend to remain in
> the
> same geographical space for centuries, reputation is a very valuable
> commodity
> because it is a highly accurate measure of trustworthiness. Soiling that
> reputation causes terrible consequences for a lot of people, and suicide
> is a
> way of cleansing the family of the wrongful act. If an individual samurai
> did
> it, (I am not sure if they had extended families since I think they were
> mercenaries) it was probably because he had lost his most precious
> commodity,
> his reputation; that is, no one could any longer trust him. That's my
> guess, but
> knowing what I know generally about the lengths to which honor is defended
> in
> other societies that depend highly on reputation, I think it's a good bet.
> In
> any of those societies, a stain against your honor will seriously hamper
> you the
> rest of your life. It's not so aberrant as the ceremonial elaboration
> might
> suggest.
>
> To repeat: understanding the utility of an act is not necessarily simple.
> I had
> to do a lot of work over several years with how different types of
> societies
> establish trust. The principle is simple, but the details can be quite
> complex.
>
> > mistake or
> > failure, which is no more satisfactory than Marx's dismissal of 'happy'
> > workers as false consciousness.
> >
> > One can consider more curious and subtle cultural variences than
> suicide,
> > celibacy or human sacrifice, such as the ways one reads different kinds
> of
> > writing (e.g. left to right versus right to left). How did these
> apparently
> > arbitrary systems of writing spread over many different countries and
> > languages- where's the greater utility in left to right or right to
> left?
> >
> > It is in this sense that I think something else is going on, on top of
> > natural selection not independent of it, influencing human behaviour,
> that
> > requires investigation.
> >
> > Vincent
> > > ----------
> > > From: Wade T.Smith
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:30 pm
> > > To: memetics list
> > > Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> > >
> > > On 05/24/00 06:49, Vincent Campbell said this-
> > >
> > > >(The point about seppuku, was that this is a ritual behaviour that
> has
> > > >persisted for many generations explicitly involving suicide- how do
> you
> > > >explain it?)
> > >
> > > Perhaps with the same breath that explains Clinton's _not_ performing
> > > such a ceremony in the face of precisely a situation in which the
> > > nipponese culture would demand it.
> > >
> > > Which is to say, there is no simple explanation for the strength of a
> > > culture or the directions is allows.
> > >
> > > - Wade
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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