Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA07136 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 25 May 2000 19:00:01 +0100 Message-ID: <392D234E.102EEF38@mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:57:50 +0100 From: chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival" References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745874@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Sorry, Chuck you've misunderstood me there over aberration. I meant it in
> the sense that you described suicide cults as failures because the behaviour
> will end with those that do it.
As I understand you now you are trying to compare the behavior of suicide by
itself without regard to context, and that is why you can suggest a fruitful
comparision between a Jim Jones cult and seppuku. It is not a fruitful
comparison for most purposes because there is a huge difference between a
practice that ends an entire group and another that affects only some
individuals who do not follow certain standards. One cannot endure, the other
can remain a functioning social form.
>
>
> I also do understand the social context of seppuku which is directly related
> to questions of honour, status and loyalty (when Hirohito died a few years
> ago, they had terrible trouble in Japan trying to stop lots of war veterans
> committing seppuku).
>
> What is interesting to me, is that the way you describe Japanese society
> could apply to most feudal societies so why did Japan develop a system of
> honour-related ritual suicide, when others, where honour has also always
> been very important (e.g. the entire notion of chivalry), did not? Or
> rather, not 'why', but what was the catalyst for this particular behaviour
> to spread in Japanese society, but not in others?
You are correct in that I am describing only societies that have a strong sense
of honor. I can't go any further because I don't know enough about Japanese
history. I would have to do a fine grain analysis of various feudal societies -
of which I know very little. But if I were interested, I would think the
research a good bet because there has to be a strong reason for such a drastic
measure. I would think that it might have something to do with being an
unusually racially homogenous population situated on a large island. I can't
think of another society with quite those conditions. And now that I am thinking
of it, such a racial ecology would make defection to another group in the event
of a mistake difficult or impossible. Remember that even today Japanese think of
themselves much more than any other country of similar size as one big family; I
hear that it is quite an intense sense of family. It's impossible, for example,
to translate the word eccentric into Japanese without having extremely negative
connotations because being different is considered such a strong statement
against the sense of family.
I know that my pursuit of such precision on the social level -- that any
differences in practice can be understood as utilitarian within an evolutionary
framework -- is rare. Most people working in the human behavior field would
allow for the possibility of a lot more free variation than I. I can only say
that by not assuming at the outset that there must be a lot of stuff that is
subject to free variation, I can eventually come up with real connections that
no one has ever been able to notice before. My discovery of the origin of the
romantic era has proved to be quite solid (historians and other professionals
find it quite convincing), yet people automatically for years assumed it was
just a natural progression from non-romantic to romantic. But of course if it
was so natural, we would not have seen the decades long decline in the emotional
intensity of romantic love.
>
>
> What do you think of the right-left, left-right writing question?
>
I can only say it doesn't attract my attention. There are behavioral differences
that make no difference. Suicide DOES make a difference, but the direction of
writing? But I may be wrong. Perhaps when we know more about how writing is
processed in the brain, we might find certain characteristic differences in the
language that made it seem more natural to go in one direction? But, like I
said, I think there are other more important and interesting problems to be
examined -- one of them being how to figure out how to investigate the effect of
the media on the public in a relatively inexpensive way. If you could make
progress on that, you might win a Nobel prize for (what?). If you really want
to figure that one out, the first condition is staying away from 20th century
"Marxist" writing! :)
>
> Vincent
> > ----------
> > From: chuck
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 1:57 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> >
> >
> > seppuku
> >
> > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't that what Chuck is arguing though, that sociobiology offers a
> > simple
> > > answer to such questions by evaluating all behaviours in terms of
> > genetic
> > > advantage/utility in particular environmental contexts?
> >
> > I am not arguing that it is a simple answer; I am arguing that it is as
> > simple
> > as basic evolutionary theory -- which in practice is quite complex.
> >
> > > My precise point is that things like seppuku can't be simply explained
> > by
> > > sociobiology, indeed if at all, other than as an abberation,
> >
> > "Abberation"? Have you looked closely at it? Do you understand Japanese
> > society
> > at all? I sort of doubt it. I suspect it seems an aberration to you
> > because it
> > certainly would be in any western society.
> >
> > I don't know a lot about seppuku, but it seems to have something to do
> > with
> > saving the reputation. One reason, for example, was to atone for failure
> > to
> > carry out duties - which might include losing a battle. There is
> > absolutely
> > nothing difficult to understand about it. The fundamental difference
> > between
> > many oriental societies and most Western societies is the importance of
> > reputation. Because each extended family in the former tend to remain in
> > the
> > same geographical space for centuries, reputation is a very valuable
> > commodity
> > because it is a highly accurate measure of trustworthiness. Soiling that
> > reputation causes terrible consequences for a lot of people, and suicide
> > is a
> > way of cleansing the family of the wrongful act. If an individual samurai
> > did
> > it, (I am not sure if they had extended families since I think they were
> > mercenaries) it was probably because he had lost his most precious
> > commodity,
> > his reputation; that is, no one could any longer trust him. That's my
> > guess, but
> > knowing what I know generally about the lengths to which honor is defended
> > in
> > other societies that depend highly on reputation, I think it's a good bet.
> > In
> > any of those societies, a stain against your honor will seriously hamper
> > you the
> > rest of your life. It's not so aberrant as the ceremonial elaboration
> > might
> > suggest.
> >
> > To repeat: understanding the utility of an act is not necessarily simple.
> > I had
> > to do a lot of work over several years with how different types of
> > societies
> > establish trust. The principle is simple, but the details can be quite
> > complex.
> >
> > > mistake or
> > > failure, which is no more satisfactory than Marx's dismissal of 'happy'
> > > workers as false consciousness.
> > >
> > > One can consider more curious and subtle cultural variences than
> > suicide,
> > > celibacy or human sacrifice, such as the ways one reads different kinds
> > of
> > > writing (e.g. left to right versus right to left). How did these
> > apparently
> > > arbitrary systems of writing spread over many different countries and
> > > languages- where's the greater utility in left to right or right to
> > left?
> > >
> > > It is in this sense that I think something else is going on, on top of
> > > natural selection not independent of it, influencing human behaviour,
> > that
> > > requires investigation.
> > >
> > > Vincent
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Wade T.Smith
> > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:30 pm
> > > > To: memetics list
> > > > Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> > > >
> > > > On 05/24/00 06:49, Vincent Campbell said this-
> > > >
> > > > >(The point about seppuku, was that this is a ritual behaviour that
> > has
> > > > >persisted for many generations explicitly involving suicide- how do
> > you
> > > > >explain it?)
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps with the same breath that explains Clinton's _not_ performing
> > > > such a ceremony in the face of precisely a situation in which the
> > > > nipponese culture would demand it.
> > > >
> > > > Which is to say, there is no simple explanation for the strength of a
> > > > culture or the directions is allows.
> > > >
> > > > - Wade
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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