Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA02739 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 25 May 2000 07:05:34 +0100 From: "havelock" <havelock@tig.com.au> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:04:31 +1000 Message-ID: <LNBBJFJFCJFOIJDOGJMAEEHKEPAA.havelock@tig.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJEEPAENAA.richard@brodietech.com> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I'm not sure by what you mean by 'one off'... most researchers in these
fields work towards a cumulative goal so it is misleading to focus on one
individual. I would think that historians like all 'scientists' build
vehicles of investigation that are applicable and transferable between
different cultures and situations - this makes them reproducable. It's a
little different than being Indiana Jones these days :)
I imagine that the satisfaction at identifying patterns or solving puzzles
is something that all scientists share in common.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Richard Brodie
> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:54 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
>
>
> I do think that reproducible results are more useful than
> one-offs as far as
> scientific progress and technological advances go. That doesn't
> diminish the
> value of the historian's life work, nor the feeling she has of
> satisfaction
> at identifying patterns or solving puzzles.
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of havelock
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 10:38 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
>
>
> Only coming in at the end of this thread but ...Richard does this
> mean that
> an archaeologist or anthropologist that correctly predicts a factor or
> characteristic of a 'dead' society before having found it is less
> succesful
> than someone that predicts something that might happen? These are both
> unknowns that can only be identified by scientific application. Your
> explanation sounds a tad linear.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Richard Brodie
> > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:14 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> >
> >
> > You aren't giving an explanation, merely a description. Your
> > theory doesn't
> > predict anything. There are an infinity of ways to construct
> > complex models
> > to understand the past. The only way to know what is
> > scientifically valid is
> > to successfully predict the future.
> >
> > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of chuck
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:01 AM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Wade T.Smith" wrote:
> >
> > > On 05/24/00 06:49, Vincent Campbell said this-
> > >
> > > >(The point about seppuku, was that this is a ritual
> behaviour that has
> > > >persisted for many generations explicitly involving suicide-
> how do you
> > > >explain it?)
> > >
> > > Perhaps with the same breath that explains Clinton's _not_ performing
> > > such a ceremony in the face of precisely a situation in which the
> > > nipponese culture would demand it.
> >
> > >
> > > Which is to say, there is no simple explanation for the strength of a
> > > culture or the directions is allows.
> > >
> >
> > You missed my point, Wade. The difference is to what extent
> > reputation plays
> > a role in each society because of ecological conditions. In this
> > country, if
> > you get a bad reputation in one town, you can simply move to
> > another town or
> > state, set up residence by showing your bank account, and start
> anew. Ask
> > any European who has moved here, and they will tell you they are
> > astonished
> > by this -- and usually love it (although perhaps academics are
> out of the
> > loop). In a land short country like Japan where people must stay in one
> > place, they don't have that option. That is why the stain
> generally lasts
> > and is far more serious than here.
> >
> > Actually, I should substitute the word land for resources for modern
> > industrial societies. I have tested this out cross culturally and it has
> > works every time. This continuum seems to work in the orient
> also as well
> > as within the US. I know of no people that relies less on reputation to
> > evaluate their countrymen, and it is a defining characteristic of our
> > mentality.
> >
> > And, yes there are explanations for the strength of *every*
> > cultural traits
> > because the culture of a people is its tool kit for living, not simply a
> > pretty thing to wear or eat. Most social scientists simply assume
> > there are
> > no explanations for certain things and don't try to investigate
> > any further.
> > Just about everyone on this listserv, for example, believes this
> > as a matter
> > of faith. The most recent such investigator is Fukuyama who
> > states outright
> > that 20% of culture is free variation, a figure he pulls out of the air
> > without being challenged.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > - Wade
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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