Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA19925 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:30:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:25:26 +0100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Determinism Message-ID: <20010410182526.A547@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <013f01c0bd6b$21682e80$5eaefea9@rcn.com>; <3AD133AA.6664.BBCD42@localhost> <00ca01c0c113$29cfd680$5eaefea9@rcn.com> <20010409183947.A685@reborntechnology.co.uk> <003001c0c120$2cb138a0$5eaefea9@rcn.com> <20010410091320.A553@reborntechnology.co.uk> <005901c0c1de$6e89d0c0$5eaefea9@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <005901c0c1de$6e89d0c0$5eaefea9@rcn.com>; from agassi@erols.com on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:51:04PM -0400 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 12:51:04PM -0400, Aaron Agassi wrote:
> > > > > > Which is quite strange, considering that objectivity is
> unattainable;
> > > > > > the best we can do is intersubjective agreement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Never the less, we still seek to improve our knowledge of truth
> > > > > (correspondence to reality). And besides subjectivity, there is also
> > > > > relativity. And the question remains whether subjective freedom is
> > > illusory
> > > > > or simply relative to the subjective frame of reference, thus as
> > > objectively
> > > > > real as superdeterminism, globally.
> > > >
> > > > What does "relative to the subjective frame of reference" mean?
> > > >
> > > The subjective frame of reference in which freedom obtains, and choices
> must
> > > be made in imperfect knowledge, in no way contradicts with the global
> view
> > > that must be superdeterministic.
> >
> > OK. I was just checking. I'm not sure superdeterminism is necessary, but
> > I'm in broad agreement with this.
> >
> > > Freedom is subjective, not illusory.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > A frame of reference is a point of view from a particular position in
> space
> > > time, or other particular situation.
> >
> > My quibble, which is quite slight, I suppose, is that "subjective" already
> > implies "frame of reference", so I see your formulation as redundant.
> > I'd say something like "subjective but non-illusory freedom in no way
> > conflicts with objective determinism".
> >
> Well, such Point of View or subjectivity that may well be illusory or
> misleading, I might not want to compare to Einsteinian frame of refference.
I was quite sure you were taking the opposite view. I give up.
-- Robin Faichney Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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