Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA15841 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:49:10 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 03:51:42 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Determinism Message-ID: <3AD131CE.29348.B4897C@localhost> In-reply-to: <3ACC4226.3EAE45CA@bioinf.man.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 5 Apr 2001, at 11:00, Chris Taylor wrote:
> > There could exist no such thing as meaning in a superdetermined
> > world, nor could there have been any reason for our self-conscious
> > awarenesses to have evolved without the ability to reflect not
> > conferring someevolutionary advantage, which it certainly wouldn't
> > if (and this is the absurd consequence of superdeterminism) every
> > motion of all our bodies was indelibly written on ths parchment of
> > the universe one nanosecond after the Big Bang.
>
> Many futures for the universe are equally valid looking forward (to us
> and anything else but a godlike philosophical construct), but looking
> back, you can find reasons. How would you know, before the fact, that
> your superdetermined path wasn't randomly determined rather than
> inevitable? Therefore why would it make any difference to us simple
> folk (or organic evolution)?
>
I would maintain that evolution acting upon the happenstance
genesis of life is EXACTLY why I'm here, and that is why it can't
have been big bang superdetermined that I am. Superdeterminism
and evolution cannot coexist, for superdeterminism turns the
universe into a static object, with past and future all conflated into
an unchangeable tralfamadorean present, and suited only for the
frozen dead, while evolution is a dynamic and irresistible force,
changing everything it touches, and touching everything living.
>
> As for proof - push your coffee cup to the edge of the table, watch it
> fall. Cause, effect. I can think of more if you want...
>
What causes the positron-electron pairs to wink into and out of
existence? The question isn't whether or not you can think of more
examples of causality, but whather I can think of one
counterexample, which puts the lie to universal claims.
>
> > Actually, the idea that perfect knowledge of the present would allow
> > perfect prediction of the future omits the fact that some events are
> > indeed random, i.e. uncaused, such as positron-electron pairs
>
> At the start of this I specifically said that, ignoring the quantum, I
> could find no *other* ghosts in these machines; this was defensive
> posturing, but to my surprise I am assured that the quantum may well
> be just as determinable as the classical but requires methods to
> examine Planck scale phenomena. The guy who assures me is a rather
> heavyweight physicist, so I have to believe him...
>
It is the same argument that theists put forward, with god being
replaced by quantum fluctuations. Ask them what causes positron-
electron pairs to do what they do, and they reply QF, but cannot
use it to predict when/where a pair will appear/disappear (just as
god cannot be used to predict events), and they cannot tell you
what causes QF, any more than theists can tell you the cause of
their god(s).
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> BTW what word suits better for evolution's 'official' status?
> [that 'sic' really got my back up]
>
> Hypertext Webster Gateway: "provisional"
>
> >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)
>
> Provisional \Pro*vi"sion*al\, a. [Cf. F. provisionnel.] Of the nature
> of a provision; serving as a provision for the time being; -- used of
> partial or temporary arrangements; as, a provisional government; a
> provisional treaty.
>
> >From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)
>
> provisional adj : under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed
> upon; "probationary employees"; "a provisional government"; "just a
> tentative schedule" [syn: {probationary}, {provisionary}, {tentative}]
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
> http://bioinf.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ===============================================================
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>
===============================This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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