Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA18640 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:16:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:59:22 +0100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme Message-ID: <20010402145922.A532@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <3AC6BA79.22669.2D165BE@localhost>; <20010401145708.A1121@reborntechnology.co.uk> <3AC775A5.1846.2ADB13@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <3AC775A5.1846.2ADB13@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:38:29PM -0500 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:38:29PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> I haven't left yet, but did briefly peruse your essay, and I found the
> conclusion that causation could not pass between levels to be
> deeply flawed. To present an example of why; there is no such
> thing as a tipping point for single grains of sand, but when many of
> them are placed together, the slope thus formed cannot exceed 43
> 1/2 degrees; at this point, additional sand placed on the apex
> slides down the sides, increasing the area of the base of the pile,
> and preserving the slope at or below 43 1/2 degrees; thus your
> levels of description are causally transgressed. Without the
> aggregate of the lower components (parts), the emergent property
> of the whole could not exist. This whole, which then recursively
> exercises unconscious (in the case of tipping points) or conscious
> (in the case of self-conscious awareness, volition and free choice)
> control over the parts of which it is comprised, in turn determines
> the configurational patterns of these parts.
The tipping point phenomenon is a very good example of how a tiny
immediate cause can have a relatively massive effect. Of course, the
bigger picture includes not just the last grain to fall before the shift,
but all the grains that fell before that and brought the pile to the
delicate condition in which just one more grain was required to set
it off.
But in any case, this is not an example of what I call "vertical
causation", and which I contend does not ever actually occur. ("Vertical"
there refers to hierarchical organisation, and has nothing to do with
sand pile slopes!) The 43.5 degree slope (I'm sure that figure must
vary between different types of sand) is certainly a higher level
feature than those of the individual grains, but the slope in itself
exerts no effect on them. The movements and eventual disposition of
each grain are affected only by those of the other grains with which it
comes into contact (as well as gravity etc). We can measure the slope
at the tipping point as 43.5 degrees, and the consistent precision
of that figure might tempt us to think of it as specially significant
-- and in a sense it is: it's quite fascinating that the features of
the individual grains, when aggregated, come to this. But it is not
causally effective. What is, is the relationship between each and every
grain that is, or comes into, contact with each other. Which is why,
as I say, the angle of the slope will vary with the features of the
individual grains. It is just an overview, a simplification, of all
the relationships between all the individual grains in the pile.
Despite any impression that might have been given by that paragraph,
I am not a reductionist, and here is why: I would insist that the slope
is just as real as the features of the individual grains. Molecules are
as real as atoms, and higher level phenomena generally are just as real
as lower level ones. But I also insist that "levels of explanation"
are well-named: that causal explanations have to adhere to one level to
be coherent.
This is not a simple issue, and there is more to be said about it,
but I think I might as well see how you react to the foregoing before
saying any more myself.
(In case anyone's interest has been piqued, there's more on the web on
causation at http://www.ii01.org/causation.html, and on levels of
explanation at http://www.ii01.org/levels.html)
-- Robin Faichney Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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