Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA16844 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:35:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.220.207] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Darwinian evolution vs memetic evolution Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:33:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F14895K7aI4z93XAg0p00006d0d@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2001 00:33:06.0526 (UTC) FILETIME=[DBBECFE0:01C09B9D] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Darwinian evolution vs memetic evolution
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:08:56 +0000
>
>On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 07:37:15PM -0500, Scott Chase wrote:
> > >From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> > >On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 08:37:23PM -0500, Wade T.Smith wrote:
> > > > >Surely all "fitness" means is that, in any given context, some
>things
> > > > >are more stable than others -- "fit" is what we call the stable
>ones.
> > > >
> > > > And what, pray tell, is stable?
> > >
> > >Darwin's "survival of the fittest" is really a special case of a more
> > >general law of survival of the stable. The universe is populated by
> > >stable things. Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, first edition, p13.
> > >
> > Slightly misleading historically speaking. AFAIK the "survival of the
> > fittest" cliche' was coined by Herbert Spencer. Lots of people attribute
>it
> > to Darwin though.
>
>I'll be pass that on to Dawkins when I see him.
>
He acknowledges Spencer in _The Extended Phenotype_ "Agony in five fits".
The excerpt you posted did kinda seem to perpetuate the notion that Darwin
was the originator of the phrase, which has had an influence on public
perception of evolution which has some ummm "memetic" qualities.
>
> > >What is fit is what is stable is what survives.
> > >
> > What survives is what is fit is what is stable. Not a whole lot of
> > information there.
>
>There's a great deal of information there, but it's about definitions,
>memes if you like, not external phenomena. You're correct in your
>implication that, despite what Dawkins says, such statements are not
>laws. That does not mean, however, that they don't represent genuine
>progress in our understanding. Clarification of concepts is essential,
>because without it there are testable hypotheses that will never even
>be formulated, never mind tested.
>
> > What about differential heritable contribution to the next generation?
> > Besides, if an organism survives, this doesn't necessarily mean that it
>has
> > succeeded in reproducing. Someone could live to the ripe old age of 70
> > without passing anything on besides their wisdom and charm. I guess they
> > could contribute to their inclusive fitness if they helped
>reproductively
> > successful relatives raise their own kids though.
>
>Obviously, survivability/stability/fitness is not the whole story. No one
>is suggesting it is. The question that arose concerned fitness, and that
>was what I tried to answer, saying that it _basically_ means stability.
>This is the bottom line, shared between living and non-living entities.
>To answer _your_ question, which is a different one, and concerns only
>living entities, we need replication with variation and selection (at
>least).
>
>In fact, if we look only at genes and memes, then fitness does mean
>survivability, which does mean stability. A fit gene is simply one
>that survives, which requires stability in the relevant environment.
>The difference between living and non-living entities is that, with life,
>we have stable items of information, as opposed to mere matter.
>
>
Could a gene make do with mere survival or would it need to find a way to
ensure that copies of itself are made and are passed onward down the line?
Maybe survival and reproduction should be viewed as complementary.
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