Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA25855 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:34:39 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745C2A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Labels for memes Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:33:31 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
<You think maybe my emphasis is internal? Haven't you seen any of
my
> messages in this very thread???>
>
Sorry, my mistake, I thought I was replying to Richard.
<Imitation need not be direct. The word can be used wherever there
is
> a similarity between stimulus and response. Again, this is broad brush
> stuff, and I'm deliberately avoiding the detail.>
>
But in social behaviour similarity between stimulus and response is
often not due to the stimulus but to other factors. This is the basic
fallacy of advertising, marketing and PR (and why they all get paid far too
much money)- if sales go up after an ad campaign the assumption is that the
cause was the ad campaign, when all sorts of other environmental factors
play a part. Besides, surely for memetics, there needs to be more than just
similarity, there needs to be replication?
>> When a
> >> child prays before going to bed at night do they pray to the same God
> as
> >> their parents?
>
<The fact there may be differences is irrelevant. All we need for
memetics
> is that there are also similarities.>
>
Well in the specific area of religious beliefs I think those
differences are very significant. The claim is surely that it's the belief
that is being replicated. I don't see how that can be the case given the
different conceptual abilities of children of various ages and adults (bit
of an assumption here, I will cede to your knowledge of psychological
development if this is wrong or a simplifcation). An 8 year old and his
father, for example, might share the same rituals and doctrines of a
religion, but do they genuinely share the same belief?
The question seems to me to be, can the behavioural expressions of
religious beliefs incuclate beliefs in people, in and of themselves? Now, I
know the response to this is like "Look around you buddy!", but we shouldn't
ignore the tremendous social pressures on appearing to conform to dominant
beliefs (as recently briefly discussed by L Jayson and Wade).
I suppose my problem with belief as memetic, is indeed the idea that
memes aren't physical things (which I think you said in a recent post)
whereas belief, as far as I understand it, does have a physiological basis.
Vincent
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