Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA19125 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:00:50 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459B9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:58:29 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Yes its the famous 'monkey trial' that I mean.
Sorry I got distracted by some colleagues in the middle of that last post,
so I didn't quite finish it with full concentration.
I'm still not really sure what you mean when you identify a Lamarckian
element to American society, politics and thought. Could you elaborate a
little?
Do you mean, for example, to take it at a crude level, that because modern
America is not the product of a lengthy development of an idigenous and
ethnically homogenous people, but instead a rapidly congealed group of
diverse peoples (the old melting pot idea) that the society is sustained via
memes?
In other words, since the varied communities of America are diverse in terms
of key factors, such as ethnicity, religion, language etc. etc., is the
society only maintained via its memes, hence when those holding America
together are threatened (or perceived to be threatened by different groups)
the results are particularly violent because they are the only things
holding the society together? So, Christian funadmentalists campaign
vigoursly for banning evolutionary theory from schools, pro-lifers bomb
clinics where abortions can be obtained, militias carry guns and shoot at
the FBI (and vice versa), race-based crimes cause ratings to go through the
roof, and lead to riots etc. etc. etc. Is this kind of environment the
reason behind, to pick another superficial example, why defacing/burning
the American flag is a criminal act in the US? Symbols have become so
central to the maintenance of America that they need to be protected?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:04 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !?
>
>
> Vincent you wrote,
>
>
> > Well, of course, the founders of America were all puritans, a particular
> > kind of Christian who weren't that popular in England, and more or less
> got
> > sent away. That puritan zeal runs deep through American society, but as
> > others have said, I'm not sure one could classify Americans in general
> as
> > Lamarkian.
>
> << No, I won 't call all Americans Lamarckian, but IMHO, as the political
> history of the land shows, that their thoughts are probably influenced by
> Lamarckian threads.
> That is, for example, the all round existing moral convictions of their
> doing,
> are, I suspect, in a sense, moulded in another shape than ours.
> That is, other brain connections are made_as in the above mentioned
> example,
> we use the memetic lineages of principle as they use the lineages of goal.
> There is a key difference in the way we use our brain...!?
> In that respect, the endlessly shaped experiences by both sides results in
> different particular responses to fit new circumstances.But, if the mind
> is/
> was already shaped by anti-Darwinian threads, well I don 't think much
> can be done that Darwinism can move up the latter !! >>
>
> > Anyway, a combination of environmental change, and existing specific
> beliefs
> > undoubtedly influenced the American mindset, but the problem is that
> America
> > as yet to stabilise in terms of immigration, with many waves of diverse
> > groups continuing to enter the US since the 17th century efforts of the
> > puritan colonists. As a result, I don't really think it's possible to
> > ascribe to the entire USA a particular mindset, after all if they were
> all
> > Lamarkian, or creationist, there would have been no desire for the
> Scopes
> > trial (I have a large photo, from a newspaper, of Clarence Darrow taken
> at
> > the trial on my wall).
>
> << Like I mentioned as above, I don 't think it either, but I do think
> that
> in the
> case of politics it is very possible that it did though !!
> And in this respect, if politics is highly influenced by Lamarckian
> thoughts, than
> it would be possible that the population is also, that due to the fact
> that
> those
> have to live by the rules set out by the political parties.
> Maby, we are not aware of the fact that Lamarckism influenced America in
> high notes because our minds are set to Darwinism !?
> Remerber, it is only for a few years now that Lamarckism is back on track
> and that is due to us, the memetisists ! After all, EJ Steele searched for
> nearly
> two decades for an answer to his questions.
> With the work we are doing here, it may be possible that we see one day
> through the clouds which are now blocking our view on America.
>
> By the way, the Scopes trial !? Is that, that famous trial of 1925/ Monkey
> Trial !?
>
> regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
> >
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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