Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA20682 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:00:55 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c00e12$597df100$6f0fbed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459B9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !? Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:28:24 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
>
> I'm still not really sure what you mean when you identify a Lamarckian
> element to American society, politics and thought. Could you elaborate a
> little?
>
> Do you mean, for example, to take it at a crude level, that because modern
> America is not the product of a lengthy development of an idigenous and
> ethnically homogenous people, but instead a rapidly congealed group of
> diverse peoples (the old melting pot idea) that the society is sustained
via
> memes?
<< Yes, yes that is more than an accurate discription of the fact !!
Each seperate ethnical group, religious force or fundamentalistic movement
passes on their own memes to their offspring or followers all under the
notion
of being part of American society. ( America has become in itself a
beliefsystem, somehow a hook where people can cling onto...)
The above process is IMHO Lamarckian, not only at the individual level of
the American in the street but also at the level of the group, force of
move-
ment where that American belongs to.
That notion makes up their sameness, their collectiviness is found in the
notion
that they think that they are all part of what America really stands for.
It is at that level where Darwinian evolution starts, an analogy would be a
binary starsystem where two seperate stars are playing tricks with
eachother,
but where their influence zone of gravity touches, well there is what
America
stands for.
Violence is an already reinforced genetically thread_due to the fact that
each
group had to fight and do fight for their own beliefs, it has become somehow
a ' general language ', because all the groups are so far apart from
eachother that violence, dead and sarrow brings them together.
Death, they say, brings people together and in America the notion, stop the
violence is for that matter the term to talk to eachother.
In a sense, symbols, yes are the forms by which those groups live, all what
is
left of their original ethnical group, religious force or fundamentalistic
move-
ment are the symbols_their relics of a better past. All has been lost under
the notion of for what America stands for. Somehow all those groups are
living memetically in the past, but in order to go ahead, to get evolution,
all those groups want to live under the most important symbol to them all,
the American flag !!
PS, the problem now is that the American dream was a haust, people are
beginning to realise that, the power of the flag is somewhat faded away.
People feel betrayed and that is a major reason to go back to their own
original group with all its consequences...
Well put, Vincent. Thanks for that, it really gave me a boost !!
Regards,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are)
> In other words, since the varied communities of America are diverse in
terms
> of key factors, such as ethnicity, religion, language etc. etc., is the
> society only maintained via its memes, hence when those holding America
> together are threatened (or perceived to be threatened by different
groups)
> the results are particularly violent because they are the only things
> holding the society together? So, Christian funadmentalists campaign
> vigoursly for banning evolutionary theory from schools, pro-lifers bomb
> clinics where abortions can be obtained, militias carry guns and shoot at
> the FBI (and vice versa), race-based crimes cause ratings to go through
the
> roof, and lead to riots etc. etc. etc. Is this kind of environment the
> reason behind, to pick another superficial example, why defacing/burning
> the American flag is a criminal act in the US? Symbols have become so
> central to the maintenance of America that they need to be protected?
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Kenneth Van Oost
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:04 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Changing threads/ American Nationalism !?
> >
> >
> > Vincent you wrote,
> >
> >
> > > Well, of course, the founders of America were all puritans, a
particular
> > > kind of Christian who weren't that popular in England, and more or
less
> > got
> > > sent away. That puritan zeal runs deep through American society, but
as
> > > others have said, I'm not sure one could classify Americans in general
> > as
> > > Lamarkian.
> >
> > << No, I won 't call all Americans Lamarckian, but IMHO, as the
political
> > history of the land shows, that their thoughts are probably influenced
by
> > Lamarckian threads.
> > That is, for example, the all round existing moral convictions of their
> > doing,
> > are, I suspect, in a sense, moulded in another shape than ours.
> > That is, other brain connections are made_as in the above mentioned
> > example,
> > we use the memetic lineages of principle as they use the lineages of
goal.
> > There is a key difference in the way we use our brain...!?
> > In that respect, the endlessly shaped experiences by both sides results
in
> > different particular responses to fit new circumstances.But, if the mind
> > is/
> > was already shaped by anti-Darwinian threads, well I don 't think much
> > can be done that Darwinism can move up the latter !! >>
> >
> > > Anyway, a combination of environmental change, and existing specific
> > beliefs
> > > undoubtedly influenced the American mindset, but the problem is that
> > America
> > > as yet to stabilise in terms of immigration, with many waves of
diverse
> > > groups continuing to enter the US since the 17th century efforts of
the
> > > puritan colonists. As a result, I don't really think it's possible to
> > > ascribe to the entire USA a particular mindset, after all if they were
> > all
> > > Lamarkian, or creationist, there would have been no desire for the
> > Scopes
> > > trial (I have a large photo, from a newspaper, of Clarence Darrow
taken
> > at
> > > the trial on my wall).
> >
> > << Like I mentioned as above, I don 't think it either, but I do think
> > that
> > in the
> > case of politics it is very possible that it did though !!
> > And in this respect, if politics is highly influenced by Lamarckian
> > thoughts, than
> > it would be possible that the population is also, that due to the fact
> > that
> > those
> > have to live by the rules set out by the political parties.
> > Maby, we are not aware of the fact that Lamarckism influenced America in
> > high notes because our minds are set to Darwinism !?
> > Remerber, it is only for a few years now that Lamarckism is back on
track
> > and that is due to us, the memetisists ! After all, EJ Steele searched
for
> > nearly
> > two decades for an answer to his questions.
> > With the work we are doing here, it may be possible that we see one day
> > through the clouds which are now blocking our view on America.
> >
> > By the way, the Scopes trial !? Is that, that famous trial of 1925/
Monkey
> > Trial !?
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Kenneth
> >
> > ( I am, because we are)
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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