Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA28816 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:19:27 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174590A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: point of memetic saturation Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:17:16 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Thanks for these comments. I'd not thought about Eco's book as about
memetic before, very intersting. I shall go back and read it now (I studied
it as an undergraduate but was notoriously bad at finishing the novels/plays
I was supposed to read- I was too busy buying philosophy books).
Very interesting point about artefacts found with or near burials. It's as
if the meaning of that person is invested in the symbolic value of their
artefacts rather than something intrinsic of themselves. There's evidently
something memetic about the incease in size of funeral monuments in the
ancient world, from simple burials, up to the pyramids.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Wesley Biggs
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2000 11:46 pm
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: point of memetic saturation
>
> Hello, Kenneth invited me to join this discussion, so I will, but with the
> disclaimer that I am just an interested party, not an expert on the topic.
>
> > Memes are making us create not only more and more outlets for meme
> > transmission (e.g. 3rd generation mobile phones), but also new
> receptacles
> > for memes in artificial intelligence- although we are some way I assume
> from
> > achieving that.
>
> Very true. This points to the dependence of memes on genes. I don't
> think
> memes can evolve without a host culture. Eco's "The Name of the Rose" is
> a
> great novel about memes and the fragile interdependency between data and
> media. (I am a medium for my memes.)
>
> << Would you say that the world is becoming a ' Digital State ' !? Will
> we
> one day wake up in a Meme World where the memes are the bodies of
> consciousness !? Have we then entered a new paradigm of evolution or is
> that just an ' idea ' of one ' meme ' letting us believe that !? >>
>
> Well, that would be a meta-meme describing the state of affairs. I think
> memes are the bodies of our consciousness already. Consider the amnesiac
> who is not "himself" until he can tell you who the president of the United
> States is. Civilization, almost by definition, is based on the relegation
> of genes to provide hosts for memes; a memetic legacy is much more
> important
> than a genetic one (why else would anyone adopt children?)
>
> > As to whether memes would survive humanity disappearing, well I think
> there
> > is that possiblity. As I've said before, there are long dead
> civilisations
> > that are studied through their artifacts, especially their writing.
> << that is de facto a new kind of life, memes will surely care for
> themselves !!
> I do not know any meme which is ' loose ' at the time, but I will look
> for
> it,
> that 's for sure !! >>
>
> I thought that's what the monoliths in "2001" were for. :-) What is SETI
> but an attempt to find memes in space? So theoretically, all memes are
> loose as long as they retain their media. But if I were a meme, I would
> rather embed myself in the minds of the masses than wait for some ET to
> read
> me off a stone tablet.
>
> > I think in principle though, once you have representation systems
> > independent of the human body, then memes can persist.
>
> I agree, the human body is just a convenient (and evolutionarily
> advantageous) medium. It's also interesting that, in a historical sense,
> the memes that survive often persist through externalized symbols kept
> close
> to the body -- for example, rings, necklaces, clothing, tools found at
> archaeological sites.
>
> Asking whether memes persist without sentient beings to host them is a bit
> like asking if a tree that falls in a forest without anyone around makes a
> sound. Yes, it makes a sound, but without that information finding a
> host,
> nothing useful can come of it.
>
> << Would we ever be able to communicate with them, in the understanding
> that they are completely independent of the human body. The implications
> of that idea comes close to what I have in mind of what ' Memetical
> Beings
> '
> could be like.>>
>
> I communicate with memes all the time. This email, for example. The
> concept of "you" as a genetic entity is irrelevant to the discussion. I
> am
> merely trying to force my memes to breed with yours. :-) Which is why
> this
> is such a "stimulating conversation".
>
> Wes
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Jul 10 2000 - 13:20:14 BST