Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA27496 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:47:23 +0100 Message-ID: <D6F9138561A6D31181E3009027E40C0EFD4B2D@mailhost2.elite.com> From: Wesley Biggs <wbiggs@elite.com> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: point of memetic saturation Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:46:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hello, Kenneth invited me to join this discussion, so I will, but with the
disclaimer that I am just an interested party, not an expert on the topic.
> Memes are making us create not only more and more outlets for meme
> transmission (e.g. 3rd generation mobile phones), but also new receptacles
> for memes in artificial intelligence- although we are some way I assume
from
> achieving that.
Very true. This points to the dependence of memes on genes. I don't think
memes can evolve without a host culture. Eco's "The Name of the Rose" is a
great novel about memes and the fragile interdependency between data and
media. (I am a medium for my memes.)
<< Would you say that the world is becoming a ' Digital State ' !? Will we
one day wake up in a Meme World where the memes are the bodies of
consciousness !? Have we then entered a new paradigm of evolution or is
that just an ' idea ' of one ' meme ' letting us believe that !? >>
Well, that would be a meta-meme describing the state of affairs. I think
memes are the bodies of our consciousness already. Consider the amnesiac
who is not "himself" until he can tell you who the president of the United
States is. Civilization, almost by definition, is based on the relegation
of genes to provide hosts for memes; a memetic legacy is much more important
than a genetic one (why else would anyone adopt children?)
> As to whether memes would survive humanity disappearing, well I think
there
> is that possiblity. As I've said before, there are long dead
civilisations
> that are studied through their artifacts, especially their writing.
<< that is de facto a new kind of life, memes will surely care for
themselves !!
I do not know any meme which is ' loose ' at the time, but I will look for
it,
that 's for sure !! >>
I thought that's what the monoliths in "2001" were for. :-) What is SETI
but an attempt to find memes in space? So theoretically, all memes are
loose as long as they retain their media. But if I were a meme, I would
rather embed myself in the minds of the masses than wait for some ET to read
me off a stone tablet.
> I think in principle though, once you have representation systems
> independent of the human body, then memes can persist.
I agree, the human body is just a convenient (and evolutionarily
advantageous) medium. It's also interesting that, in a historical sense,
the memes that survive often persist through externalized symbols kept close
to the body -- for example, rings, necklaces, clothing, tools found at
archaeological sites.
Asking whether memes persist without sentient beings to host them is a bit
like asking if a tree that falls in a forest without anyone around makes a
sound. Yes, it makes a sound, but without that information finding a host,
nothing useful can come of it.
<< Would we ever be able to communicate with them, in the understanding
that they are completely independent of the human body. The implications
of that idea comes close to what I have in mind of what ' Memetical Beings
'
could be like.>>
I communicate with memes all the time. This email, for example. The
concept of "you" as a genetic entity is irrelevant to the discussion. I am
merely trying to force my memes to breed with yours. :-) Which is why this
is such a "stimulating conversation".
Wes
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