Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA21199 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:00:04 +0100 Message-ID: <3939391D.6832054B@mediaone.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:58:06 +0100 From: Chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival" References: <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJCEJIEOAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Richard Brodie wrote:
> Chuck wrote:
>
> <<Do weathermen predict the future? How well do they understand the
> weather?>>
>
> Yes of course they predict the future and understand the weather... that's
> their job. What's your point?
My point is that they often don't predict very well - depending on the area of
the country. Nevertheless, they understand a lot about how the weather works.
viz. the butterfly effect.
>
>
> [RB]
> > Assuming you are talking about memetics, let me ask you a question. Do you
> > think every person to use steel independently invented steel in response
> to
> > a changing ecology? Or did the idea of steel spread rapidly once invented
> > once or a handful of times, filling a cultural niche?
>
> <<As I said in a previous post, one could indeed say that each person
> "invents"
> it.>>
>
> So you see no distinction between coming up with a novel innovation on one's
> own and learning about it from someone who already has the knowledge? Isn't
> one a lot more difficult and rare?
That distinction may or may not be relevant. It depends on the context. I'm not
trying to evade the issue; that's basic scientific method.
>
>
> << But did it spread rapidly or was it invented a handful of times? It's
> very
> hard to know - the debate has been around for about 150 years. But these
> days
> they are finding more and more evidence for the latter. On a really complex
> invention, though, remember that it pays to keep the process a secret.
> Producing
> bronze, for example, is a complex process. It was invented on one island in
> the
> Mediterranean Sea, and there it stayed; it was the source of bronze for the
> entire Mediterranean. That may be because the exact minerals only resided
> there
> and there were lots of trees for fuel (the island is now treeless precisely
> because it was all used up). Another example that comes to mind are
> navigational
> charts during the Age of Discovery - they were so valuable that they were
> kept
> secret.>>
>
> An interesting story. I'd love to sit and listen to your stories some time.
> But the question was whether you acknowledge that information spread
> memetically throughout a culture.
I wouldn't use the word memetically -- that's your word with all your
connotations. In my line of work, we simply say that people spread knowledge for
a number of different motivations.
> I must have missed it. Could you please repeat the essence of your theory
> that conflicts with memetics?
The thread has been lost here, so I don't know what you are referring to
exactly.
> <<Sorry - I don't have the time to go back to find them. I remember at least
> two
> of them at the moment, and the work of Blackmore is saturated with the
> bias.>>
>
> As I remember you didn't get much agreement on that. And I think it's odd to
> claim that a discussion conducted exclusively by email is populated by
> people biased against technology.
I only call 'em like I see 'em.
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