Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA21115 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:51:19 +0100 Message-ID: <3939370E.AADA0BF7@mediaone.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:49:18 +0100 From: Chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Cui bono, Chuck? References: <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJOEJGEOAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Richard Brodie wrote:
> Chuck wrote:
>
> <<Are you aware that Pinker completely disagrees with memetics?>>
>
> He didn't mention that to me when I talked to him a year and a half ago,
> although he certainly wasn't an expert on the subject. Forgive me if I don't
> take your word for it.
You don't have to. He summarily dismisses it in a page or two as essentially
ridiculous in How the Mind Works (pp. 208-210). My critique is pretty much the
same as his.
>
>
> [RB]
> The question is, does every single
> > individual in the society invent the solution on his own, or do a few
> people
> > invent the solution and then it spreads memetically?
>
> <<In a way, yes.>>
>
> Well, that was an either-or question and you answered "yes." How am I
> supposed to take that?
>
> << Have you ever heard the term "make it your own?" Someone else may
> appear to have created a solution, but until you try it yourself, "make it
> your
> own", you don't know for sure. Reverse engineering seems like mere imitation
> to
> laymen until they actually try it. It can sometimes be as difficult as the
> actual invention - requiring as much creativity as the original.>>
>
> You are describing one of the many processes by which memes are transmitted.
> I think Blackmore put you off with her emphasis on imitation, which is
> particular to her and a couple others.
I am mystified,then, as to why you keep asking me how memes spread and why you
have disagreed with the notion of utility.
>
>
> <<However, in a society where everyone specializes in a particular area, you
> have
> to let them do it for you, and **they** have to make sure it works.
>
> I'm sure I could think of other things involved in this business of
> "memetic"
> spread, but that's a start.>>
>
> I don't know what you were attempting to demonstrate here.
>
I'm trying to say that lots of times you can't do it yourself, so you can't
directly test whether or not it works. You have to hire someone else. I think
it's only indirectly related and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.
>
> <<For the same reason that Pinker would say it is diametrically opposed. He
> finds
> not one shred of credibility in memetics.>>
>
> I find your appeal to Steven Pinker's supposed opinion to be rather weak.
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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