Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA00376 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 31 May 2000 14:47:24 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174588B@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Primate Rights Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:45:21 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I've always been arachnophobic myself (phobias having been discussed at some
length on this list, I thought I'd just drop that one in).
Is one difference about humans that we actually care about other species
becoming extinct? (Quite aside from our awareness of extinction which I
would guess is another).
Where does that come from- our concern for other species?
I can see a logic in wanting to preserve species that we directly rely on in
some way, such as for food. (I once said to a vegetarian, in a bit of pub
banter, that if everyone in the world became vegetarians, then there would
be no need for the millions of farm animals, and they'd all have to be
slaughtered because- we'd need the land for crops, they'd use up resources,
and they've been so selectively bred for so long they'd not be very capable
in the wild).
Yet we also care about species that are potentially dangerous to us, such as
Tigers and Wolves (e.g. plans to reintroduce wolves in several countries,
including Scotland- where I live, that's why I mention it). I'm not opposed
to any of this, I just wonder how this is adaptive behaviour for us.
Maybe it developed from inter-species tolerance, like the chimp/baboon
interactions that were filmed in Gombi, that I mentioned in an earlier
posting.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Anne Hansen
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:11 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Primate Rights
>
>
>
> > The porcine rights thing was a joke (forgot the smiley).
> >
> > The point about animal experiments, it seems to me, is precisely that
> one
> of
> > the things that seems inherently wrong with it is that animals aren't
> > capabale of giving consent, thus making experiments illegitimate.
> > Alternatively, abolishing experiments on primates because of close
> > behavioural similarities seems erroneous to me, becuase where do you
> draw
> > the line?
> >
> Yes I agree it is a difficult conclusion. I guess with primates the
> extinction situation is a worry.. Especialy when a animal is close to
> extinction as the Mountain Gorillas happen to be at the moment.
>
>
> > As has already begun to happen, some experiment are now done on "lower"
> > animals- such as that test of drugs on spiders' abilities to make webs
> that
> > got a lot of press coverage in the UK a while back.
>
> It is fascinating to watch them work this wonder.
>
> Is this any more
> > legitimate because spiders are a long way from being similar to humans
> in
> > their behaviour?
> >
> Like I said before with the biological stuff plus the material I have
> read from great Authors such as Jane Goodall, Dian Fossey, Franz de waal,
> There is a much closer link for Humans with primates than spiders, for me
> that is, for you I'm sorry to say obviously not:)
>
> > Vincent
> >
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Anne
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 1:13 pm
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Primate Rights
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thank Ann, very interesting material.
> > > >
> > > > I've always been both fascinated by Goodall's work (at Gombi isn't
> it?)
> > > and
> > > > concerned at the same time. Fascinated because of how lengthy
> > > observations
> > > > of chimp behaviour has shown some remarkable parallels with human
> > > behaviour,
> > > > but concerned because she has a major tendency towards
> anthropomorphism
> > > (the
> > > > chimps have 'names' etc.).
> > >
> > > I"ll answer on these issues, and your following lines at a
> later
> > > date!
> > >
> > > > I've said before on this list that I don't buy other animals having
> > > > cultures, though; pre-cultural behaviours, or proto-cultural
> behaviours
> > > > perhaps, but to call these rudimentary behaviours culture I think
> makes
> > > the
> > > > term meaningless.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously human culture (and things like religious belief) have to
> have
> > > some
> > > > precedent as they are products of natural selection, and it would
> indeed
> > > be
> > > > strange if we didn't see behaviours approximating human behaviours
> in
> > > other
> > > > animals.
> > > >
> > > > Yet both quantitively and qualitatively our behaviours are distinct.
> > > Apes
> > > > do not spontaneously in the wild develop grammatical language the
> way
> > > they
> > > > do in the lab, and experiments have shown that pigs can use computer
> > > > joysticks to perform basic tasks as well. Does that mean there
> should
> > > be
> > > > porcine rights as well?
> > >
> > > Not even worth an answer...
> > >
> > > > Vincent
> > >
> > > I skipped the last section of the article last night, Ive
> posted
> > > it
> > > now, so you can try to comprehend what goes on in the labs!
> > >
> > > Cheers Anne
> > >
> > >
> > > ((The Oregon Regional Primate Research Center: Oline K.
> Ronnekleiv
> > > is administering cocaine to pregnant mothers and unborn fetuses. He
> has
> > > discovered that chronic cocaine use causes brain damage. (Project
> number:
> > > 5
> > > P51 RR00163 -38).
> > > Miles Novy " . . . studies . . . unanesthetized chronically
> > > catheterized maternal-fetal
> > > preparations . . . ". He wants to know how hormone levels change
> during
> > > pregnancy in rhesus macaques and baboons. (Project number: 5 R37
> > > HDO6159 -25).
> > >
> > > Washington Regional Primate Research Center: Marnix L. Bosch
> has
> > > learned that HIV and SIV have, " . . . important biological
> > > differences."
> > > This was discoverd by infecting rhesus and pigtailed macaques. They
> were
> > > infected both orally and rectally. (Project number: 2 P51
> RR00166 -36).
> > > Virginia M. Gunderson has recieved a Scientist Development
> Award
> > > to " . . . gain
> > > expertise. . . [and], . . . acquire the skills to attain her career
> > > goals."
> > > She is injecting chemicals into the brains of very young pigtailed
> > > macaques
> > > to try to induce seizures.
> > >
> > > New England Regional Primate Research Center: Janice H. Kinsey
> > > designed a database to keep records on the large population of
> > > individually
> > > housed monkeys. She gathered data on the amount of various behaviors
> such
> > > as: ". . .pacing, bouncing, rocking, . . . self-biting, grasping, and
> > > hair
> > > pulling." She learned that 10% of the center's monkeys bite
> themselves.
> > > [Sometimes they chew off fingers, tail tips and chew holes in their
> arms
> > > that require veterinary care.] ( PN # 5 P51 RR00168 -36).
> > > Alyssa Rulf Fountain, studying self-injurious behavior (SIB)
> such
> > > as
> > > self-biting, reports that,
> > > ". . . the causes are largely unknown." ( PN # 5 P51 RR00168 -36).
> > > Both of these studies above are ongoing, but as early as 1990
> > > researchers had found that even a small hole between cages of
> individually
> > > caged monkeys which allowed them to touch each other stopped most of
> this
> > > behavior. Ms. Fountain's assertion notwithstanding, the cause of SIB
> has
> > > been well known for years: Most non-human primates are more social
> than
> > > humans and isolating them causes insanity. (See D. Blum, The Monkey
> Wars,
> > > pg. 191).
> > >
> > > Wisconsin Regional Primate Research Center: Christopher L. Coe
> says
> > > that, "Prior research at our laboratory has determined that stressful
> > > events experienced by the pregnant female monkey can affect her fetus
> .
> ..
> > > ."
> > > .. Now he wants to know, " . . . whether the absence of breast milk
> and
> > > its
> > > soluble immune products exacerbates the effects of prenatal
> disturbance."
> > > PN # R01 MH41659 -12).
> > > In a similar study at the Wisconsin center, researchers are
> scarring
> > > the amygdala (a deep brain structure) of female monkeys to induce a
> > > permanent state of fear. They want to know whether such stress can
> affect
> > > a
> > > baby born to such an afflicted mother.
> > >
> > > Tulane Regional Primate Research Center: Margaret R. Clark is
> working
> > > to enlarge the breeding colony of rhesus macaques. She wishes the
> > > facility
> > > to produce an additional 150 babies a year. She says, " . . .
> infants
> > > will
> > > be removed [from their mothers and all adult monkeys] within three
> days
> of
> > > birth . . . Management practices will maximize the psychological
> > > well-being
> > > of the animals." ( PN # 5 P51 RR00164 -34, $103,241).
> > > Gamal M. Ghoniem is implanting vascular cuffs around the neck
> of
> > > the
> > > bladder of rhesus macaques. A lead to this cuff runs out of the
> monkeys'
> > > bodies and allows him to squeeze off the neck of the bladder while the
> > > monkeys attempt to urinate. He has found that monkeys whose bladder
> necks
> > > are most tightly closed take longer to pee than those with less
> > > obstruction.
> > > ( PN # 5 P51 RR00164 -36).
> > >
> > > Yerkes Regional Primate Research Center: Leonard L. Howell has
> > > learned
> > > that monkeys trained to drink caffeine will self-administer lower
> doses
> > > than
> > > monkeys trained to receive intravenous injections. ( PN # 5 P 51
> > > RR00165 -37).
> > > Opendra Narayan has successfully developed a cross between
> SIV
> > > and
> > > HIV-1. He reports that this new virus he has created is, "highly
> > > pathogenic in pigtailed macaques." He does not mention whether it
> would
> > > be
> > > harmful to humans. ( PN # 5 P51 RR00165 -37).
> > > Margarete Tigges is sewing the eyelids shut on newborn infants.
> (
> > > PN
> > > # 5 P51 RR00165 -37).
> > >
> > > California Regional Primate Research Center: David G. Amaral is
> > > using
> > > chemical means to permanently disconnect the amygdalas from the
> rest
> of
> > > the brain in male monkeys. He wants to know whether they will still
> be
> > > able
> > > to communicate with facial expression. He says this will help us
> > > understand
> > > criminality and psychopathic behavior in humans. ( PN # 5 P51
> > > RR00169 -36).
> > > William Gilbert is ligating (tying shut) esophagi and
> catheterizing
> > > the
> > > tracheas of fetus rhesus macaques. He characterizes this as chronic
> > > catheterization which means that these babies inside their mothers
> have
> > > these tubes in them for days or months on end. ( PN # 5 RR000169
> -36).
> > >
> > > What these examples teach is that the federally funded primate
> > > research
> > > centers around the United States have little regard for or
> understanding
> > > of
> > > the animals they experiment on. Any abuse is allowed in the name of
> > > Science. Studies routinely repeat experiments that have been done on
> > > humans. Monkeys are disposed of as if they are broken equipment.
> > > Every center has received warnings about the condition of the
> > > animals'
> > > housing. Every center keeps monkeys in isolation. Every center
> receives
> > > over 10 million dollars a year. Expansion is underway around the
> country.
> > > Every law to protect and enhance the life of these animals has been
> > > heavily
> > > lobbied against by the biomedical community.
> > > The researchers say this work is important because we learn about
> > > humans since monkeys and apes are so like us, but at the same time
> they
> > > say
> > > we should not be concerned over the torment these animals suffer
> because
> > > they are so unlike us.
> > > Biomedical researchers have made the same arguments and done
> similar
> > > things to minorities throughout history. The research taking place at
> the
> > > NIH Regional Primate Research Centers is just more of the same. Its
> root
> > > cause is the bigotry that is always associated with unbridled hubris.
> > > Only
> > > when people speak out will it end. ))
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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