Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA20605 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 21 May 2000 10:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01bfc30e$7fcd9080$230fbed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: "memetics" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <20000515123546.AAA8987@camailp.harvard.edu@[128.103.125.215]> <391FB11E.8B34F748@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics/ Lawrence 3 Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:22:04 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
"Wade T.Smith" wrote:
On 05/14/00 11:50, Lawrence H. de Bivort said this-
<< Can a person create their own memes for themselves, if their meme-
space is not filled by others? >>
As I mentioned in my message number 2 I think this is what is happening when
we talk about autism. We talk about it like it is a psychological defect,
but even so that the person is completely retired; secludes oneself from
the world and shows hardly any initiative doesn 't mean he or she has no
meme-activity !!
Such people live in their own world. Can they then create their own memes!?
Their meme-space is not filled by the memes we usually find in ' normal '
people so I suppose they can create their own memes and live by them.
In some sense they have to !
And I don 't think it would be a temporary thing. The memes such people
have, do have from our point of view no social use, but they have to be
remerbered ! Otherwise the organism will perish.There has to be some
brain activity to call one alive, no !?
Why I ask, must memes always have a social use !?
Can memes not be there just for the sake of the survival of our autistic
fellow-man !? If not, what is the interest of the memes here !?
If not, you can ask a very crude question, if the memes has no social
use, what is then the purpose of their host !? Yes indeed, the concept
of memetics has extreme consequences for our understanding of mora-
lity !
Such memes have indeed in some sense no travel from one brain to
another to exist, but how do they survive then, if not the autistic person
himself is capable of to explain what is happening to him; not capable of
to tell us what it is like to be an autistic person !?
We do know how it is like to be an autistic person and what kind of world
he is living in, and that is due to observation, investigation, a lot of
patience and carefull deduction. So memes about autism are travelling
around, they travel from one brain to another, but do memes which our
autistic fellow-man created for himself travel around !?
I think they do !!
I think they do, but not very far. Only the nearest persons (mother,
relatives, nurses, doctors, ...) will eventually know / understand a little
bit. That is, they will notice moodchanges, they will understand what
our autistic friend means when he cries, wants attention, etc...
Of course, for our autistic friend it is not possible to comprehend the
outside world in which we are living, so to express feelings, understan-
dings, affections and what is going on in his mind and world is only
lighting up a part of his/ hers (the) truth. We will never for the full
100% be sure what our autistic friend is telling us is accurate, not
because it should not be true, but because his mimic, gestures and
speech are short upon expression.
<<Is it possible that one's memespace is _only_ accessible by oneself,
and that there is no 'fill' available? >>
Same example here, autism !
Our autistic friend his world is one of his own creation, we are not
able to come in that world (only after long hours /years of trying), so
we can suppose that his own memespace is only accessible by him-
self.
Is there a fill available !?
Not for our autistic friend, though !
What would be the nature of that fill if not the fill is our world !?
If the fill is not our world, we must then assume that memes are
far out something else than just sterile units of information !! Than
we are talking about some ' living ' matter !
For our autistic friend it is not possible to call our world his own,
so he is left with the memes he (or his mind) for himself created.
Has an autistic child ideas about our world, of his world for that
matter; is he making plans for the future? How does an autistic child
sees our world; what is the perspective !?
I don't know.
The question was raised by TJ Olney _Who holds the leach, if there
is one, genes or memes, or perhaps something else !? ( Feb 8 2000)
We have instances where within isolated populations, the memes that
people have held have caused the genes demise_think ritual group
suicides. The meme tends to die with those genes. I think you can
add autism by those concepts.
Lawrence, you did answer TJ Olney, do you think your reply is
still valid !? (Feb 9 2000)
The end.
Regards,
Kenneth
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