Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA11082 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 15 May 2000 15:38:04 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB191@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:36:06 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
What was the name of that guy who came up with the notion of 'Future Shock'
in the 1960s? That's the same phenomenon that you're describing, and it's
also evident in modernism such as Munch and Kafka.
It is precisely this conundrum that memetics does attempt to investigate.
Given that the pace of change is disturbing, indeed incomprehensible to some
people, what is the process driving change? What makes cultural change so
much faster than biological change? What are the consequences for
biological change going to be in an environment being radically altered by
cultural change?
I would reject the idea that those in favour if the idea of memes are
anti-technology, far from it. Those writing about memes that I've come
across are more antipathetic to things like astrology, religion and alien
abduction- they want to know why beliefs persist that can be demonstrated by
logic, experience or experiment to be false. They want to know why crazes
apparently appear out of nothing and then return to nothing (or nearly
nothing to rise again like dracula), whether it's hula hoops, skateboards,
or pokemon.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 12:24 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > hunter-gatherer environment? Are all our peculiar cultural habits a
> > feature, as Wilson would say I suppose, simply the result of genetic
> driving
> > which can't keep up with the pace of environmental change, and thus are
> > often 'mistakes' (like the examples you give), or is something else
> > involved? Does something having a use in our ancestral environment
> explain
> > its specific form (or forms) of existence in the contemporary
> environment?
> >
> > Vincent
> >
>
> Vincent - One aspect of this subject has been investigated. I think it's
> Cosmides (I can find out for you). He shows that even those who are
> professionally involved with the use of logic - like mathemeticians - have
> as
> much difficulty solving certain simple logical problems as the lay public
> - and
> have quite a high probability of getting it wrong. They say the reason for
> this
> lies in the fact that logic under ancestral conditions was tied to
> concrete
> objects and it was only used when absolutely necessary. Under modern
> conditions,
> we must abstract out the ability to be logical so we can use it across a
> broad
> array of situations. But since our brains weren't constructed to do this,
> using
> logic this way can be quite a frail tool.
>
> Which brings me to another aspect of this subject. Yes, from all I have
> been
> able to observe in two countries under conditions of extremely rapid
> change,
> such change does short circuit or make less functional the the processing
> power
> of our brain acquired during more stable times. I have confirmed the
> following
> in both Brazil (which has traversed the psycyhological distance that took
> us 2
> centuries in about 2-3 decades) and the United States: there is an loss of
> elementary common sense. That's not a joke. Here's some of my evidence.
>
> Scott Adams refers to an incident in his first book where he, too, talks
> about
> the same phenmoenon - of how people are more "stupid" - including himself,
> because of the rate of change. When his tape recorder stopped functioning,
> he
> brought it into the repair service -- who pointed out that he needed new
> batteries; Scott is not stupid, he just developed tunnel vision like the
> rest of
> us. He and I both believe that this kind of thing - which happens all the
> time -
> is caused by the necessity under situations of extreme cultural change to
> develop tunnel vision, focusing on only those things which are immediately
> and
> directly relevant to making a living. Other more peripheral things get
> short
> changed. What also happens is that we must assimulate things that often
> don't
> make much sense because we haven't had time to develop a deeper
> understanding.
> Computers are a good example. So even in those areas where we develop
> tunnel
> vision, our use of common sense is often crippled because it's not used a
> lot.
>
> I have spoken to Robert Kaplan about this loss of "common sense" (for lack
> of a
> better term at the moment) and he says that he has noticed it world wide.
> I
> could go into examples in Brazil which would knock your socks off, and
> they also
> notice it consciously.
>
> I am sure this is nothing new. There is evidence that this "memic
> disorientation" has happened throughout history during sudden changes. It
> surfaces specifically around the question of meaning. For example,
> Socrates'
> constant questioning in 300BC(?) was a manifestation of this. More
> recently, the
> question of meaning comes up explicitly during the industrial revolution
> as in
> the philosophy of Neitze and later, Satre or Camus. This is not
> characteristic
> behavior of people living under stable conditions. People who are living
> in
> traditional societies where they have children, remain mothers for their
> entire
> lives, etc. etc. do not ask heavy questions about the meaning of life.
>
> What is going on here? I think that the conscious mind - the part that is
> responsible for planning (where we talk to ourselves about various
> projects,
> including how we are going to talk to this or that person), which uses a
> lot of
> language (as when we talk to ourselves) can only process so much. Yet that
> is
> the part we need the most when things are changing fast becasue we can't
> rely on
> what we already know - the "intuitive" part of the brain which reaches as
> far
> down as the lymbic system.
>
> Here is an interesting hypothesis based on what I have said: the most
> important
> reason that people are so attracted to memetics is precisely because of
> the
> disorientation caused by our current rate of rapid change. The meaning of
> many
> "memes," if you will, are in the process of transition, and so the depth
> of
> their meanings (the network of associations built up in the brain) is
> rather
> shallow. The feeling that memes can have little or no meaning or practical
> value
> comes from this whole process of rapid change. That is, the meanings of
> anything
> don't have a chance establish a rich network of associations, so there is
> a
> "thinness" if you will, to our culture. I have noticed this thinness when
> learning a new language. The words lack enough depth to stick very well,
> and I
> make some really stupid errors in reasoning. So in one sense, memetics is
> a
> historical product of these times. Memeticists take as their subject a
> real
> phenomenon, although they exaggerate it as when they treat memes as having
> a
> life of their own. That's why they all - probably without exception - tend
> to be
> anti technology. They don't recognize, however, the historical specificity
> of
> their observations so they incorrectly generalize their intuitions.
>
>
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Bill Spight
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 am
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > >
> > > Dear Vincent,
> > >
> > > > At a small
> > > > social group level, you've got bond-forming and maintaining, but how
> > > many of
> > > > his fans does Michael Jordan know (and vice versa)? And I'm sure
> we're
> > > > familiar with the concept of widows & orphans in sport, the families
> of
> > > > fanatical sports followers who definitely suffer as a result, we're
> > > talking
> > > > about behaviours which are quite widespread around the world,
> relating
> > > to a
> > > > myriad of different sports, that seemd to defy being satisfactorily
> > > > explained by genetic advantage
> > >
> > > Isn't sports fanaticism atavistic? I. e., it is not very fit in a
> > > modern civilized environment, but it probably was in the smaller
> > > social groups in which humans have lived for most of our
> > > existence (and it expressed itself differently too, I expect).
> > > Much the same can be said for the sweet tooth, which is more
> > > fitted for an environment where you pick fruit from trees, rather
> > > than one with donut shops.
> > >
> > > And thanks for the joke. ;-)
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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