Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA11132 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 15 May 2000 15:46:38 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB192@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:44:36 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Oh yes, I'm not saying we don't have a probability capacity in our brain,
only that it isn't "tuned" to cope with huge expanses of probability.
That's why the probability of the emergence of language from natural
selection seems improbable to many people (in the way that theists find it
difficult to deal with the idea of the universe coming from nothing), and
requires explanation.
A similar, and very good example, would be our perceptions of the Earth
being flat and the Sun going around the Earth. Our perception of space is
designed for our immediate environment where we didn't "need to know" that
the Earth is really a sphere, that travels around the Sun.
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 12:29 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa?
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > What this means for arguments about probabilities, is that even when we
> > quantify probabilities, there is a very good chance that it will
> conflict
> > with our inbuilt sense of personal incredulity. This is seen most
> evidently
> > in religious people where they can't accept the universe could occur
> > spontaneously by chance, and assume it must have been started by someone
> or
> > something. So, the argument really should be is it impossible for
> something
> > to occur- what, in the physical laws we are still learning about,
> prevents
> > certain things from being possible.
> >
> > Vincent Campbell
> >
>
> Vincent - there has been a lot of work done on this from exactly the
> perspective
> you are talking about. However, what is interesting is that we DO have an
> inborn
> ability to understand probabilities and act on them. But it all depends on
> how
> they are stated. It's the same problem as understanding logical constructs
> that
> I just wrote about in another posting. The brain has to get the
> information in a
> way that approximates how it got it under ancestral conditions. Pinker in
> How
> the Mind Works goes over this material.
>
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Robin Faichney
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:07 pm
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa?
> > >
> > > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Wade T.Smith wrote:
> > > >Robin Faichney made this comment not too long ago --
> > > >
> > > >>Personally, I think all those who insist on the improbability of
> things
> > > being
> > > >>as they are, are pushing a disguised creationist, or at least
> vitalist,
> > > >>agenda.
> > > >
> > > >Ain't nothin' personal about it, really. As that great memeticist,
> > > >Sherlock Holmes, was recorded to remark, 'Once you've eliminated the
> > > >impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, is the truth', to
> which
> > >
> > > >I attempted to allude previously.
> > >
> > > I think Sherlock is better described as a great meme, than a great
> > > memeticist.
> > > But in any case, the improbability alluded to there is surely
> subjective.
> > >
> > > I guess I have to come clean here and admit I've always had a problem
> > > understanding the concept of objective (im)probability. To my mind,
> if we
> > > really knew all the factors involved, then whatever happened was the
> only
> > > thing
> > > that possibly could have happened. I realise this is somewhat
> Newtonian,
> > > but
> > > then that is still the default in the macro realm, is it not? And on
> this
> > > basis, im/probability is all about ignorance -- an event seems more or
> > > less
> > > likely GIVEN what we know, and what we don't know, about it and its
> > > precursors.
> > > So to say that anything that actually happened was improbable is,
> strictly
> > > speaking, meaningless. Or rather it tells us about our own ignorance,
> and
> > > nothing else. Which is why I think people who say such things must
> have
> > > some
> > > underlying agenda, and as to what that is: why say something is highly
> > > improbable, unless you're trying to imply there's something "special"
> > > about it?
> > > (And the Newtonian nature of this doesn't get you off the hook unless
> > > there is
> > > something explicitly non-Newtonian in your thinking.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Robin Faichney
> > >
> > > ==============================================================This was
> > > distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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