Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA22925 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 22 May 2000 11:54:00 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1C6@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:52:07 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
You did, but you're looking at this problem from such a narrow perspective,
you're not seeing the bigger picture.
I really do not understand how you cannot see media processes as distinct
from the processes of natural selection (distinct not independent of).
Here are some basic questions to show what I mean-
When you go to the cinema, do you talk to the characters on screen? Why
not?
When you watch images of a war or a famine on television, do you think it
has the same effect on you as if you were directly there? Why?
When you're watching a new presenter looking 'out of' the television 'at
you', what do you think he or she is thinking? Who are they talking to?
Indeed, how do you talk to people you can't see or hear?
According to the Guiness book of World Records (sorry world's records for
Americans) the most watched television programme in the world is Baywatch,
with some 1 billion viewers. Baywatch, of course, a very particular image
of women (and men for that matter), which is seen in disparate cultures
around the world- what impact does this have? Is it the same culturally as
the ecological impact of the arrival of dogs and cats in Australasia?
What is the effect of information communicated across thousands of miles and
millions of people simultaneously?
When you look at a painting like the Mona Lisa do you get the message da
Vinci was sending out? Or, even better perhaps, when you look at a Picasso,
or a Jackson Pollock?
Now, I'm not saying that our physiological and psychological
responses to such things aren't taking place in the brain and therefore
aren't anything to do with natural selection.
What I'm saying is that we did not evolve in an environment with such media
(or most other technology for that matter), and we have to ask questions
about how these developments may in themselves create environmental
pressures on the process of natural selection. Once, you start to think
about just how rapid technological and cultural change can be, in relation
to genetic change, you also have to think about the impact of such forces on
the behaviour of humans at a given point in time. What is evident from
history- as much as you'd like to ignore or dismiss it- is that the
combination of technology and culture has created in the past, and
currently, behaviour not just from individuals, but entire groups that
conflict with genetically beneficial behaviours. Not only that, but their
behaviours have not died out with those people, because the technologies and
cultures that produced those behaviours are maintained and passed on in ways
over than via the genes, e.g. through their writings, their architecture,
their art etc. etc.
I really think you can't see the trees for the wood here (and, yes I do mean
it that way round).
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 12:26 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > I'm not asking why it's transmitted, I'm asking how it's transmitted,
> and
> > whether or not that process is different in any kind of way from natural
> > selection.
> >
>
> I think I've got a way to answer, but it might take some going back and
> forth
> for a while. The "how" is obvious, by the visual channels. That means the
> brain
> has to use a far more limited range of senses than ever before to
> understand.
> And worse, it's probably far more limiting than we can imagine.
>
> Here's an interesting fact to illustrate the problem. The US Navy trains
> recruits mostly only highly computerized ships with the exception of one
> battleship that has relatively fewer computers. The rest of the navy
> fights for
> the recruits in the latter -- because they are ultimately better at
> computers!
> The reason is probably the following: those that learn about the ships
> functions
> mainly through computers only have two senses, sight and (sometimes)
> sound, to
> learn with. The ones from the poorly equipped ship have learned about the
> ship
> with a lot of actual use - touch and feel. The more senses you can rally
> to
> learning a task, the better you will learn it. In other words, learning
> through
> computers is what I might call thin - it doesn't create as many
> associations in
> the brain.
>
> Now, back to your question. That is in a nutshell the problem of modern
> society.
> We have to learn much more from fewer senses. Those who are genetically
> favored
> to do this better may be selected for. In other words, it's not "outside"
> evolution, it's evolution in the making. To answer your question, it is
> *not* a
> "process [that] is different in any kind of way from natural
> selection."
>
> So where does that leave media studies? With a very difficult problem that
> no
> simple tool is going to help you solve. The fact is, we are not very well
> equipped to absorb facts without having practical experience with those
> facts. I
> think it was Marx who said that all knowledge is sensual, by which he
> meant not
> abstract. This fact of life imposes all sorts of limitations on modern
> society.
> There's simply no magic bullet on this one, not even treating information
> as if
> they were genes - that only gives you one more layer of abstraction to
> confuse
> the issue.
>
> Did I read you right this time?
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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