Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA00729 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 May 2000 15:09:57 +0100 Message-ID: <3921467F.66C57791@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:00:47 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0005152338410.16229-100000@poirot.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
"Lawrence H. de Bivort" wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
>
> >I think I answered this in another form yesterday - but it goes like this. Yes,
> >people do hold beliefs on the basis of their _apparent_ usefulness, and most
> >beliefs in an ongoing society _are_ accurate or the society would collapse
> >pretty fast. It is up to the scientist to figure out how these beliefs are
> >useful because people can't always make that conscious -- because it often does
> >them no good to be able to verbalize it.
>
> I think "usefulness" is a significant element in the spread of memes
Spread is one thing, use is another, no? Just because a meme is used by some people
doesn't mean it will spread.
> --
> quite possibly necessary but not sufficient. (Among the other elements
> also necessary are a number of architectural characteristics that have to
> do with simplicity, defense, etc.). Now, by 'useful' I am thinkign quite
> broadly, to include memes that are perceived as useful, truly useful,
> short-term useful, long-term, etc. There must be a _reason for the
> adoption of the meme, and the architectural components are not themselves
> sufficient.
I agree.
I also have found that people _can_ express the utility of a meme to them
> quite easily, if questioned effectively.
Yes - lots of times. But I think that sometimes it is hidden from them. But I guess
we would have to bring up examples. Like for example, I asked a 20 something why
oral sex as an exclusive alternative for sex has become so widewspread, and he said
that it was because of fear of disease, especially AIDS. But I pointed out to him
that condoms would take care of that threat, to which he was surprised -- and
admitted it was true. (Oral sex is used by them because it's seen as less intimate
by that generation, and appropriate between friends).
>
>
> The ditty stuck in a person's head....is it useful? I have been following
> this discussion with lots of interest, and would offer this thought: it
> may be that the _mechanism_ through which the brain registers the ditty is
> a mechanism that has some other (and more recognizably useful) function,
> and that its (unfortunate) ability to remember useless ditties is
> incidental. (Perhaps there are auditory characteristics of successful
> ditties that are important for other reasons, and the ditties merely
> contain these characteristics.)
>
Probably. The point is, it is not useful in the sense that it satisfies a perceived
goal. It's actually annoying - which is interesting by itself.
>
> I do use the presupposition that _everything_ a person does, from a
> behavior to a belief to a statement, is useful to that person, whether it
> is in ways that can understand or verbalize, or not. This presupposition,
> which is one I use for utterly pragmatic reasons, may be coloring the way
> I think of memes.
>
> >> If the
> >> beliefs help their adherents survive better, that more fits what I said
> >> about leading to (presumably) a more desirable life. But certainly there are
> >> examples of religions, such as Koresh and Heaven's Gate, that do not enhance
> >> survival but just the reverse.
> >
> >Yes - and they don't last. They were the failed experiments.
>
> Well, let us simply suppose that the 'purpose' of a meme lies in the
> intent of its designer, in those cases where it is designed, and
> deliberately released. One can easily imagine an intention other than that
> the meme itself survive. (This notion of the controlling goal of
> 'survival' is one of the weaknesses that memetics seems to be saddled with
> by those who would equate in the social sphere a meme to a gene.)
> Supposing the Heaven's Gate meme(s) _were_ designed not with the meme's
> survival in mind, but with the suicide of the group's adherents, or to put
> it perhaps more precisely, with their 'travel' post-Earth to wherever. The
> meme, in guiding them to this end, certainly would have achieved the
> intent of its designer, though the meme itself expired. Nothing wrong with
> that. I see meems as tools, and the important thing is what is
> accomplished with the tool, not the tool itself.
>
I am pretty sure I agree with you on this. It's llike any tool - it can be
gerryrigged for all sorts of purposes.
>
> - Lawrence
>
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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