Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA00763 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 May 2000 15:10:15 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1A2@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Useless memes Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:56:00 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I think this view-
>We were not allowed to win because of media and governmental
> intervention.
>
does a dis-service to the fervency of Vietnamese nationalism.
One of the new memes to emerge out of the Vietnam War in America, is that
the war was lost purely because of internal dissent, and that the conflict
on the ground in Vietnam had nothing to do with it. This is patently
untrue.
> ----------
> From: Bruce Jones
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 2:13 pm
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Useless memes
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vincent Campbell [SMTP:v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk]
> > Subject: RE: Useless memes
> >
> > I'd agree that wars involve, in their instigation the propagation of
> memes
> > (e.g. that wars are just, and our soldiers are on the side of right
> etc.).
> > Vietnam has remained a problem within the wider American memeplex ('the
> > American way') because both internal dissent and battlefield defeat
> > fundamentally undermined part of the American memeplex's truth-trick
> > (moral
> > and material superiority to other nations).
> >
> [BJ] The aspects of defeat in Vietnam might be called an artificial
> meme. We were not allowed to win because of media and governmental
> intervention.
> We have discussed the difference between propaganda and public
> relations. With Vietnam there was more media PR than government
> propaganda.
>
> No war has ever been fought without the support of both. Other
> nations have hyped, bragged, propagandized their militaristic glories and
> defeats through the use of the cinema. It just seems America does it
> with
> a little more glitzy than others.
> [BJ] National pride, State pride, community pride, group pride, and
> individual pride all have to have positive meme references and one
> unfortunate method for establishing this is through the glorification of
> brutal and inhuman acts such as war... especially if they win.
> [BJ] The only other item that has caused such a feeling of pride
> and accomplishment is the space race.
>
> Bruce Jones
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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