Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA07363 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 14 May 2000 16:25:59 +0100 Message-ID: <000901bfbdbc$33cae720$4803bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <B6E47FBD3879D31192AD009027AC929C3688DD@NWTH-EXCHANGE> <00c101bfbcb6$833c4c60$03000004@r2z3h3> Subject: Re: are memes born of complex systems? Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:50:07 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Tyger <void@internet-zahav.net.il>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 10:37 AM
Subject: are memes born of complex systems?
> Another issue which seems to hide in the background of this discussion is
> the issue of complexity and probability when applied to memetics.
>
> questions that I ponder:
> 1. is evolution a feature of complex systems? (thus implying the secondary
> nature of evolution to the primacy of complexity in nature)
> or
> 2. is complexity a feature of evolution (Thus implying the opposite)
>
> in other words, tackling the egg and chicken meme again. Evolution is an
> inevitable part/feature/ principle of the nature of Life, hence Life is by
> its own very definition a complex system, predicatble only in statistical
> terms. which brings us to the basic question of evolution and memetics. is
> the arisal of memes inevitable?
>
> not sure the above counts as a thought anyway, just sharing the ponder..
>
> Tyger.
>
<< Are memes born of complex system ?
Is the arisal of memes inevitable ?
I would say, if we take the natural/ biological stance, that is as an
evolution
feature YES, memes are then a complex system_one among many.
Memes are then, when nature takes her course inevitable.
Of course, that is something we all assume !
If we take on the other hand a biblical stance, than memes are in some
sense " born ". Let me explain.
René Girard is his efforts to explain culture investigates the problems of
social history:- the mimetical character of all human desire, the origin of
conflict and violence, the founding operations of the scapegoat mecha-
nism.
Girard stipulates that Abel was the first human to be called as such.
According to Girard, there are only two events happening in the story
about Abel and Kain.
The first, THE MURDER
Second, THE FOUNDATION OF HUMAN CULTURE
If indeed, human culture was then established we can suppose that
memes came at the same time into existence. But, is that true !?
Where, for example, did that meme came from !?
Girard says, strictly speaking, SATAN (the metaphor for all evil in
and between man) was and is from the very beginning of those, what
Girard calls EDIFYING MURDERS, present.
SATAN, if we take Girard hypothesis seriously, had to be present
when Kain killed his brother; he had to be already there !
Because there has been a murder, whatever the reason was, the
thought to do so had to be there too !
So, the most logical, very simple conclusion is that not only the very
first meme was there " born " out of a raging conflict between two
brothers, but the very first meme; the very first memetical thought
was about ( to commit) murder !!
" New memes " are now " born " troughtout the complex paths of
evolution, we may suppose that Kain became wiser after he killed
his brother,...had in some sense new / other memes.
What is in fact the memetical process, if not a process to spirit away
what really happened back then !?
The consequence is that memes (our memes) by some form direct or
follow the same pattern which Kain followed.In a sense, memes are
" born " ( and propagate themselves) troughtout history by means
of conflict:-war, morality, religion, belief, reason, ethics, ideology,...
This is a shorter version of an extented essay I am trying to write about
René Girards ideas and the consequences for memetics in general.
Kenneth
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