Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA00527 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 12 May 2000 17:50:19 +0100 Message-ID: <391BF0A4.8B53CB1A@mediaone.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:53:08 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Useless memes References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB18A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
By this method of analysis, all words have the same problem: they are "by
themselves" nonsensical. Most, if not all, words are metaphors that point to
different things through time by shifting the underlying meanings. As I have
pointed out previously, that's why most words have many meanings. So it doesn't
matter if it's words or phrases, a new meaning takes advantage of a lot of the
old meaning to create new meanings. So Agnes was so disgusted with the dirty
water that she emptied the basin before she realized that her baby was in there.
Well, she WAS drunk, but everyone heard the story, and it lived on as a metaphor
for a general category of event.
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> I actually think it might be more fundamental than that, because many of
> these kind of sayings or catchphrases have very unclear meanings, and the
> origin of the analogy has been lost (or transformed). After all what do
> phrases like 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater' or 'the grass is
> always greener on the other side of the fence' actually mean, and where did
> they come from? (answers on a postcard :-) ).
>
> Or, to put it another way, a lot of phrases persist without its users really
> knowing what it means or where it came from. I would say that many persist
> not because they are inherently useful, but because they appear to be
> useful- the truth trick. How do you resolve a complex argument about cause
> and effect in the relationship between language and society? You use a
> saying which implies the impossiblity of resolving it - what came first the
> chicken or the egg (even though this is not necessarily an impossible
> question to answer).
>
> Or to be fair to those utilitarians on the list, the use of phrases often
> changes markedly, whilst the content stays essentially the same. So is it
> the usefulness of these memes that allows them to exist and persist, or some
> other characteristic (i.e. their reproducibility- which may include utility,
> but isn't exclusively reliant on utility)?
>
> Vincent
> ----------
> > From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 3:26 pm
> > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > Subject: RE: Useless memes
> >
> > On Fri, 12 May 2000, Bruce Jones wrote:
> >
> > >IMHO sayings such as "Which came first ... ", "Best laid plans ..",
> > "Don't
> > >throw out the baby with the bath water.", etc. catch on because they
> > convey
> > >complex meanings with the fewest number of words.
> >
> > Bruce, I think you have pointed to an important characteristic of a
> > successful meme.
> >
> > I guess my favorite would have to be "Out Now!" This caught on rapidly as
> > the slogan on the anti-VietNam war movement, and helped people focus and
> > act on the key issue.
> >
> > I can see where such simplification might lead to a loss of detailing that
> > is actually important to choosing a course of action, and where a meme
> > might cause the loss of usefulness. In the case of "Out Now!" the loss of
> > detail was acceptable because it didn't really matter (from the anti-war
> > movement's point of view) _how_ the US got out, just that it did and
> > rapidly.
> >
> > Lawrence de Bivort
> > The Memetics Group
> >
> > |---------------------------------------------|
> > | ESI |
> > | Evolutionary Services Institute |
> > | "Crafting opportunities for a better world" |
> > | 5504 Scioto Road, Bethesda, MD 20816, USA |
> > | (301) 320-3941 |
> > |---------------------------------------------|
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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