Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA00359 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 12 May 2000 15:54:11 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB18A@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Useless memes Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:52:10 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I actually think it might be more fundamental than that, because many of
these kind of sayings or catchphrases have very unclear meanings, and the
origin of the analogy has been lost (or transformed). After all what do
phrases like 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater' or 'the grass is
always greener on the other side of the fence' actually mean, and where did
they come from? (answers on a postcard :-) ).
Or, to put it another way, a lot of phrases persist without its users really
knowing what it means or where it came from. I would say that many persist
not because they are inherently useful, but because they appear to be
useful- the truth trick. How do you resolve a complex argument about cause
and effect in the relationship between language and society? You use a
saying which implies the impossiblity of resolving it - what came first the
chicken or the egg (even though this is not necessarily an impossible
question to answer).
Or to be fair to those utilitarians on the list, the use of phrases often
changes markedly, whilst the content stays essentially the same. So is it
the usefulness of these memes that allows them to exist and persist, or some
other characteristic (i.e. their reproducibility- which may include utility,
but isn't exclusively reliant on utility)?
Vincent
----------
> From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 3:26 pm
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Useless memes
>
> On Fri, 12 May 2000, Bruce Jones wrote:
>
> >IMHO sayings such as "Which came first ... ", "Best laid plans ..",
> "Don't
> >throw out the baby with the bath water.", etc. catch on because they
> convey
> >complex meanings with the fewest number of words.
>
> Bruce, I think you have pointed to an important characteristic of a
> successful meme.
>
> I guess my favorite would have to be "Out Now!" This caught on rapidly as
> the slogan on the anti-VietNam war movement, and helped people focus and
> act on the key issue.
>
> I can see where such simplification might lead to a loss of detailing that
> is actually important to choosing a course of action, and where a meme
> might cause the loss of usefulness. In the case of "Out Now!" the loss of
> detail was acceptable because it didn't really matter (from the anti-war
> movement's point of view) _how_ the US got out, just that it did and
> rapidly.
>
> Lawrence de Bivort
> The Memetics Group
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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