Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA00962 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 12 May 2000 13:29:09 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB187@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa? Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:27:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
The question is not whether animals can have societies, but can they have
cultures?
Society implies groups of animals (larger than signle families) living
together for mutual benefit, (although the term has become invested with a
lot more meaning than this, not least that for humans it's seen as a
conscious decision to live together). Lots of animals do this, humans
included, and distinct societies sometimes interact. One of the most
beautiful things in nature I have ever seen was a film of a Chimpanzee troop
in central Africa (Gombi I think it was) coming across a group of baboons,
and the young chimpanzees and baboons played together (it eventually got a
bit rough and the chimps scared the baboons off), but that kind of species
interaction is remarkable in its rarity.
But, the argument that memetics emerges out of, is that human societies have
cultures whilst animals do not, and what we want to know is where does
culture come from, and is it driven by something other than genetic
advantage?
At least, that's the way I see the memeticist's concern.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Bruce Jones
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:51 pm
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa?
>
> OK I'll bite ..... Why can't animals have societies?
> First what is your definition of a society?
> What makes social structure?
> And this one will probably get a Bronx cheer from some of you ....... Is
> man
> not an animal?
> If not why not?
>
> I know this is not the real topic of this list ....but ..... Any
> discussion
> with the goal of enlightenment is productive.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wade T.Smith [SMTP:wade_smith@harvard.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 11:52 AM
> > To: memetics list
> > Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa?
> >
> > On 05/11/00 11:50, Bruce Jones said this-
> >
> > >Which came first the chicken or the egg?
> >
> > Or the question is more, can chickens have societies? It is, um,
> > fashionable (to a degree matched only by the age of one's Birkenstocks)
> > to point to animal societies.
> >
> > But, I remain, Rockported, and say pish-tosh- fanciful anthropomorphism,
>
> > at best....
> >
> > - Wade
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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