Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA22665 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:36:54 GMT Message-Id: <200003171934.OAA19235@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:38:21 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Some questions In-reply-to: <00031718100800.00614@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Some questions
Date sent: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:07:17 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Wade T.Smith wrote:
> >On 03/16/00 09:12, Robin Faichney said this-
> >
> >>But at the same time the concept of the self is a meme, and
> >>an extremely successful one, that is "caught" early in life, and I'm
> >>convinced
> >>that a person who had never interacted with any other person, would not have
> >>it.
> >
> >The _concept_ of the self is certainly a meme,
>
> But given the recursive nature of self-consciousness, can there be a self
> without the concept? Can there be recursion without a symbol for what's being
> recursed into?
>
That is exactly what the buddhist concept of no-mind is supposed
to be; they claim not to have a self any more, but refer to
themselves by name. Once you have a self, I do not think you
can ever really lose it while you live. Human infants of 15 months
can be self-aware, as measured by the mirror test; however, they
have at this point already internalized the difference between
responsive and nonresponsive others from their caregivers (person-
permanence chronologically precedes object-permanence).
Children who have received little interaction have stunted self-
concepts, our experiences with Roumanian infant warehouses
teaches us. It does beg the question, however, of how there could
have been a first self, without a prior self from which to internalize
selfhood. Apparently, once we passed the cognitive complexity
limit beyond which recursion occurs, the social situation in and of
itself is sufficient for the development of selfhood, just as wolfpacks
develop hunting behavior not seen in single wolves. The capacity
requires social stimulation to manifest, but this capacity is
nonetheless there to be actualized.
>
> >as the name of the song is
> >'The Aged Aged Man.' (And if I'm wrong about that, I'm sure a good
> >Carrollian out there will correct me.) But the self itself, well....
> >
> >Your experiment, while totally unethical and therefore not endorsable,
> >has occurred by sad accident, with the 'wild child' discoveries, and,
> >from what I remember (completely sketchy though my memory is on this
> >point) these wild humans do not underscore your conviction.
>
> Why do you say that?
>
Feral children lack language skills, but since they do use tools, I'll
bet they pass the mirror test, although I am unaware of such tests
being administered. If anyone can find a record of same, please
post it.
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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