Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA02472 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:15:37 GMT Message-Id: <200003012113.QAA29865@mail6.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:17:28 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20000315130112.007e4160@rongenet.sk.ca> References: <200002281820.NAA12052@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:01:12 -0600
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> At 12:24 PM 28/02/00 -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
> >Date sent: Sat, 26 Feb 00 09:21:16 -0000
> >From: "Mark M. Mills" <mmills@htcomp.net>
> >To: "Memetics List" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> >Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >> >>> Who would
> >> >>>assert, for instance, that a band of baboons throwing rocks at
> >> >>>another band of baboons trying to drink water at their watering
> >> >>>hole comprised culture?
> >> >>
> >> >> Why not?
> >> >>
> >> >Next you'll tell me that an otter swimming on its back with a rock
> >> >on its belly with which it cracks clams, or a seagull dropping
> >> >oysters on coastal rocks and then eating the meat exposed by the
> >> >breakage are culture.
> >>
> >> If someone wanted to spend time proving regional variations in otter clam
> >> cracking practices represent a body of imitative practices passed down
> >> from the otter herd (?) to younger memebers, I would probably laugh. I
> >> don't think it would be a wise investment of time, but there is nothing
> >> wrong with the hypothesis.
> >>
> >> I'm puzzled by your assurance that group rock throwing by non-human
> >> primates is the cultural equivalent of an otter cracking a clam on its
> >> belly. As Lloyd Robertson pointed out, the concept of 'normal behavior'
> >> comes into play and you seem to find no need for reviews of the norm.
> >>
> >>From what I understand, throwing things is pretty common in
> >simians; what anthropocentrically grabbed everyone's attention was
> >that a human was killed as a result.
> >>
> >> I suspect your assurance reflects your conviction that self-awareness
> >> must be achieved before behaviors express culture.
> >>
> >I do not think that memetic evolution can occur without selection,
> >which can only occur in the memetic environment (which is a
> >cognitive one where candidates compete to be reMEMbered) by
> >means of conscious choice.
>
> I agree with you on this point, Joe. Further, I agree that you have
> presented a powerful argument suggesting that monkey stone throwing may not
> be an example of memetic change. Your argument is so powerful, in fact,
> that it puts the onus on those favoring a memetic explanation to demonstrate:
>
> 1) that this species (I am not even sure we have agreed on
> that) did not previously stone herdsmen they met at watering holes (that
> deals with your "competitor" point);
> 2) that this change, if successful, was repeated (we may infer
> from the repetition "reMEMbered"); and,
> 3) that the change is replicated horizontally and/or
> vertically (to deal with possible Skinnerian conditioning).
>
> If the above three conditions are satisfied then you will have to grant
> that these monkeys (whoever they are) have a culture.
>
If in addition they modify the rocks so that they throw better or hurt
more (creating novel meaning by design) and transport rocks to
places the babboons wish to defend but where they do not
naturally exist so that they are available to be thrown from there,
(rudimentary toolkit behavior) we may agree on this.
>
> Lloyd
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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