Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA09952 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:16:55 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000319102139.00804a70@rongenet.sk.ca> X-Sender: hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:21:39 -0600 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca> Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-Reply-To: <200003012113.QAA29865@mail6.lig.bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20000315130112.007e4160@rongenet.sk.ca> <200002281820.NAA12052@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 03:17 PM 01/03/00 -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
>> >I do not think that memetic evolution can occur without selection,
>> >which can only occur in the memetic environment (which is a
>> >cognitive one where candidates compete to be reMEMbered) by
>> >means of conscious choice.
>>
>> I agree with you on this point, Joe. Further, I agree that you have
>> presented a powerful argument suggesting that monkey stone throwing may not
>> be an example of memetic change. Your argument is so powerful, in fact,
>> that it puts the onus on those favoring a memetic explanation to
demonstrate:
>>
>> 1) that this species (I am not even sure we have agreed on
>> that) did not previously stone herdsmen they met at watering holes (that
>> deals with your "competitor" point);
>> 2) that this change, if successful, was repeated (we may infer
>> from the repetition "reMEMbered"); and,
>> 3) that the change is replicated horizontally and/or
>> vertically (to deal with possible Skinnerian conditioning).
>>
>> If the above three conditions are satisfied then you will have to grant
>> that these monkeys (whoever they are) have a culture.
>>
>If in addition they modify the rocks so that they throw better or hurt
>more (creating novel meaning by design) and transport rocks to
>places the babboons wish to defend but where they do not
>naturally exist so that they are available to be thrown from there,
>(rudimentary toolkit behavior) we may agree on this.
>>
My three conditions involve change, repetition and transference. You appear
to be not satisified with these three conditions for the existence of
memetic evolution. Why?
Lloyd
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