Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA10395 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:56:05 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000315130112.007e4160@rongenet.sk.ca> X-Sender: hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:01:12 -0600 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca> Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-Reply-To: <200002281820.NAA12052@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> References: <B0000273544@htcompmail.htcomp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 12:24 PM 28/02/00 -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
>Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
>Date sent: Sat, 26 Feb 00 09:21:16 -0000
>From: "Mark M. Mills" <mmills@htcomp.net>
>To: "Memetics List" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> >>> Who would
>> >>>assert, for instance, that a band of baboons throwing rocks at
>> >>>another band of baboons trying to drink water at their watering
>> >>>hole comprised culture?
>> >>
>> >> Why not?
>> >>
>> >Next you'll tell me that an otter swimming on its back with a rock
>> >on its belly with which it cracks clams, or a seagull dropping
>> >oysters on coastal rocks and then eating the meat exposed by the
>> >breakage are culture.
>>
>> If someone wanted to spend time proving regional variations in otter clam
>> cracking practices represent a body of imitative practices passed down
>> from the otter herd (?) to younger memebers, I would probably laugh. I
>> don't think it would be a wise investment of time, but there is nothing
>> wrong with the hypothesis.
>>
>> I'm puzzled by your assurance that group rock throwing by non-human
>> primates is the cultural equivalent of an otter cracking a clam on its
>> belly. As Lloyd Robertson pointed out, the concept of 'normal behavior'
>> comes into play and you seem to find no need for reviews of the norm.
>>
>>From what I understand, throwing things is pretty common in
>simians; what anthropocentrically grabbed everyone's attention was
>that a human was killed as a result.
>>
>> I suspect your assurance reflects your conviction that self-awareness
>> must be achieved before behaviors express culture.
>>
>I do not think that memetic evolution can occur without selection,
>which can only occur in the memetic environment (which is a
>cognitive one where candidates compete to be reMEMbered) by
>means of conscious choice.
I agree with you on this point, Joe. Further, I agree that you have
presented a powerful argument suggesting that monkey stone throwing may not
be an example of memetic change. Your argument is so powerful, in fact,
that it puts the onus on those favoring a memetic explanation to demonstrate:
1) that this species (I am not even sure we have agreed on
that) did not previously stone herdsmen they met at watering holes (that
deals with your "competitor" point);
2) that this change, if successful, was repeated (we may infer
from the repetition "reMEMbered"); and,
3) that the change is replicated horizontally and/or
vertically (to deal with possible Skinnerian conditioning).
If the above three conditions are satisfied then you will have to grant
that these monkeys (whoever they are) have a culture.
Lloyd
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