Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA19534 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:28:52 GMT Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:24:23 -0800 Message-Id: <200201150124.g0F1ONv24339@mail2.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [216.76.250.15] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is) For a compelling commentary on how we were misunderstood by our attackers, go to:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_1_why_the_muslims.html
for Victor Davis Hanson's article "WHY THE MUSLIMS MISJUDGED US".
> "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory PerceptionDate: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:29:28 -0500
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>In fairness, the US was put into a most difficult situation on Sept 11,
>regardless of how our actions before that may have helped create the
>conditions that led to Sept. 11. We had never imagined that this might
>happen to us, and our perception that we are liked around the world made it
>even harder to fathom. Given the level of our impacts globally, Americans
>generally do not know much about the world outside our borders. Much of
>official Washington was thrown into what I view as cognitive panic. We just
>didn't know _how_ to think about Sept 11. We have discussed on this list
>what the options might have been and their pros and cons, and much as I
>disagree with what Bush/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft have done, I also can understand
>how they embarked on that course of action. It was a time when mistakes were
>easy to make, and with clamour to 'do something (anything) fast' their job
>was only made harder.
>
>Slowly, the Bush administration is beginning to see the inconsistencies and
>drawbacks of their actions: yesterday, unidentified Whote House 'sources'
>conceded that the US actions in Afghanistan haven't 'won the war on
>terrorism.' Next, I hope, will come the recognition that when something
>fails, doing it harder is not the answer. And then perhaps there will be a
>willingness to think about terrorism intelligently and to design policies
>and actions that will defuse it. But I think it will be several months
>before we get to this point.
>
>Also, in the category of the Bush administration calming down and coming to
>its senses, it has now conceded that missile attacks from 'rogue states' are
>not the greatest military danger to the US, but that low-grade terrorist
>attacks (e.g. trucks a la Oklahoma city) are. Some analysts have been
>arguing this for months (and some years) and it is nice to see some
>progress.
>
>I guess this email is in the way of a plea to those who are critical of US
>actions (as I am) to understand the immense cognitive blast of Sept 11.
>Decision-makers here were dazed, and in this conditon mistakes -- even huge
>ones -- are easy to make. The Bush adminsitration understood little of the
>US role internationally, and next to nothing about the Middle East. They
>embarked on a steep learning curve, but felt compelled to take major action
>before they had had a chance to progress far along it. Now it seems
>understanding may be beginning to catch up with action. It is a shame that
>some of these actions may have now foreclosed a range of options that with
>the growing learning may come to be viewed as advantageous.
>
>Sept 11 has a lot to teach us about memetics, and I hope that we continue to
>remember this when we discuss Sept 11 on this list. There is plenty of room
>for disagreement on the substance of the Bush actions.
>
>Lawrence
>
>
>
>> I see your point Lawrence, as I'm sure many others on the list do.
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>> > ----------
>> > From: Richard Brodie
>> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 21:21 PM
>> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>> >
>> > I think that's way off base. Bush and other have bent over backwards to
>> > say
>> > we are fighting terrorists, not Islam. In any case your
>> examples are a far
>> > cry from the intensive anti-Western brainwashing given to some Muslim
>> > children in their schools.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
>> > Of Lawrence DeBivort
>> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:28 PM
>> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>> >
>> >
>> > Take the instances I listed below. Each of them implies that Christians
>> > (Americans) have the right to act the way they have in these instances,
>> > and
>> > have that right because Muslims are to be hated. The attacks by
>> the US on
>> > Arab and Muslims countries, listed below, were carried out outside
>> > international and US law. At least two instances (Tripoli and
>> Sudan) were
>> > found subsequently to be without justification. Muslims are
>> inferior, goes
>> > the implicit and at times explicit argument, and so it is acceptable to
>> > hate
>> > them.
>> >
>> > To put the point more specifically, a US Congressman (from Louisiana, I
>> > believe?) called Arabs/Muslims a people who wear diapers and
>> fan belts on
>> > their heads. Islam is routinely accused of oppressing women (though most
>> > who
>> > do so are confusing the Taliban with Islam). And all too many US
>> > commentators gleefully describe the inferiorities of Islam
>> while ignoring
>> > its accomplishments. I attended a local church service, and the pastor
>> > picked up on this refrain, and said that any society that
>> harbored within
>> > it
>> > those who could carry out Sept. 11 was itself evil (an echo of Bush's
>> > 'those
>> > who harbor terrorist' argument). Even Thomas Friedman, who used
>> to have a
>> > semi-balanced view of the Middle East, has fallen in with the
>> anti-Muslim
>> > views of post-Sept. 11.
>> >
>> > All this, unchallenged by any significant body of American political,
>> > legal
>> > or moral leaders, conveys to the American people (children or
>> adults) that
>> > Muslims are not worthy of fair or legal treatment. Sept 11 proved a
>> > bonanza
>> > for those who hate, whether they are Muslims who hate America, or
>> > Americans
>> > who hate Muslims. All too many educated Americans fell for it,
>> as have, I
>> > would guess, all too many educated Muslims.
>> >
>> > Lawrence
>> >
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
>> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
>> > > Of Richard Brodie
>> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:38 PM
>> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > No, that wasn't what I was asking. I was asking where Christian
>> > > children are
>> > > being taught to hate Muslims.
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
>> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
>> > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
>> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:54 AM
>> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Please remember we are asking how Muslim children might get the
>> > > 'meme' that
>> > > Christians are out to kill them, in parallel with Chriustian kids
>> > getting
>> > > the 'meme' that Muslims are out to kill them...
>> > >
>> > > What Christians have done to Muslims recently that might
>> spread the meme
>> > > that Christians are out to kill Muslims:
>> > >
>> > > - Somalia
>> > > - Attack on civilian sections of Tripoli
>> > > - US bombings of Iraq post-Kuwait
>> > > - Sudan -- Clinton's cruise missiles
>> > > - Afghanistan - ditto
>> > >
>> > > Each of these US actions -- entirely justified in US gov't eyes --
>> > killed
>> > > and harmed Muslim civilians.
>> > >
>> > > And then we have the highly publicised:
>> > >
>> > > - Bush's 'the evil ones' used without specification
>> > >
>> > > - Bush's 'crusade' - later retracted by Bush if not by those
>> who planted
>> > > this ill-conceived language in his mind), but only after the
>> > > 'crusade' meme
>> > > had spread
>> > >
>> > > - Afghanistan 'collateral damage' -- this meme, launched by
>> the DoD and
>> > > Bush, has been well-exploited to suggest a callous disrgard to
>> > > the death and
>> > > maiming of innocents.
>> > >
>> > > I won't even go into the two-centuries of colonialism by the
>> > > Christian West
>> > > (often and more recently with US participation) that preceded all of
>> > this.
>> > > But will, if you inquire ;-D
>> > >
>> > > Some will want to argue with us about how some or all of these actions
>> > are
>> > > 'justified' but this is not of great interest here: we are
>> > > talking about the
>> > > acts, perceptions and language what create and spread memes.
>> > >
>> > > Lawrence
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > I don't see the parallel. Where is that happening?
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
>> > Behalf
>> > > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
>> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 7:11 AM
>> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> > > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > In the same way, I suppose, that Muslim parents have to worry about
>> > > > Christian kids being taught that it is alright to kill Muslims.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > <<It's not the memes you have to worry about, it's the people who
>> > use
>> > > > > them.>>
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So we don't have to worry about Muslim children being taught that
>> > the
>> > > > > highest goal in life is to kill themselves in an attack on
>> > Americans?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ===============================================================
>> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
>> > Transmission
>> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
>> unsubscribing)
>> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ===============================================================
>> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
>> Transmission
>> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ===============================================================
>> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
>> Transmission
>> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ===============================================================
>> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ===============================================================
>> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> >
>> >
>> > ===============================================================
>> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ===============================================================
>> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>> >
>> >
>> --
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>> ===============================================================
>> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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