Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA19481 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:11:33 GMT Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:07:08 -0800 Message-Id: <200201150107.g0F178g22772@mail2.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [216.76.250.15] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:12:21 -0500
> Re: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Wade Smith <wade_smith@harvard.edu> memetics@mmu.ac.ukReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>On Monday, January 14, 2002, at 12:53 , <salice@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> I'd say the use depends on the user and the
>> meme just sits there waiting for the next user and his personal
>> task.
>
>All fine and dandy, as long as you can point to this thing.
>
>Admittedly, if we are merely to say that a hammer, as an
>artefact, is a meme, then, there it is.
>
>But, then, what do we call the behavior of the carpenter, and
>the vandal, who both use it?
>
>Who's meme has the hammer?
>
>If the meme is the use of this artefact, than it is only that.
>If the meme is the artefact itself, then it is only that. If the
>meme is the behavior of using this artefact, than it is both,
>and only present during the behavior.
>
>What is it to be?
>
>I, personally, am on the side of the behavior, as actualized.
>Everything else is environment or potential. Memes, for me, are
>actions, regardless of how embued an artefact might be (like the
>SUVwith cultural intention.
>
>> I'd say the use depends on the user and the
>> meme just sits there waiting for the next user and his personal
>> task.
>
>The use does indeed depend upon the user. But the use of what?
>When does the use of something, and the memetic use of that
>something, separate? I don't see them separating at all.
>
The concept of hammering as a means to modify a natural object is the L-meme (internal ideation); the actual hammering is the g-meme (external behavior). This one is ancient and predates humanity proper; animals are known to employ hammering (otters balance flat rocks on their bellies and smash shellfish against them to batter them open). Let's distinguish the primitive memes that may be communicated by demonstration, imitation and mimicry as I-memes (imitation memes). The construction of a tool (modifying a natural object so that it may be more efficiently employed to modify another object - such as knapping a handaxe) rather than an implement (modifying a natural object for a direct function, such as chimps stripping leaves from branches to use the whips to feed on termites in mounds) is a second-order conception that appears only in human history. Still, it may be considered a (more advanced) I-meme, because it may be transmitted by showing rather than necessitating a !
telling or saying. The tool (or even the implement) itself is an artifact, yet it also embodies the meme for its purpose among those who are experientially exposed to its use, as, for them, it comes to stand for its use.
What humans have that is different from all but possibly the higher apes and some cetaceans is the C-meme (communication meme); a meme that must be communicated by means of a telling or saying, that is, encoding in an arbitrary (that is, not instinctual, but created and variable - as in multiple language possibilities) commonly understood symbol system or language. Animals only have access to the I-meme; humans (and possibly the others I mentioned on a rudimentary level) may employ both the I-meme and the C-meme. Once secondary systems are developed to freeze the C-memes rather than have them dissolve in the flow of discourse (that is, glyphs and writing which stand for spoken or signed words), our civilization had the ability to exponentially advance.
I beieve that the failure to make the fundamental distinction between I-memes and C-memes has been the cause of much strife and confusion in memetic circles.
>
>- Wade
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL!
http://www.addall.com compares book price at 41 online stores.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Jan 15 2002 - 01:18:28 GMT