Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA18714 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:28:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [199.183.184.39] From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: playing at suicide Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:23:54 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <LAW2-F32QaKjNJwFiLR00022135@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2002 19:23:55.0147 (UTC) FILETIME=[01C105B0:01C19D31] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent,
Are you saying, then, that animals don't pass memes? If if they do, what
tools do they have to do it with other than empanthy and mimicry? They
certainly can't use words. Dawkins, himself, used animals to demonstrate
his concept of a meme.
You also say, "memes require replication." Are you saying we don't
replicate words? Your point is beginning to escape me here.
Grant
>Hi Grant,
>
>We've covered stuff on mirror neurons on the list previously (check the
>archives). He is referring to a possible mechanism for empathy, not for
>what you're talking about. The point I made still stands because you were
>not, at the time of my original response (I'm playing catch up a bit with
>all the newbies posting alot, causing us oldies to post lots too),
>differentiating language based responses and instinctual ones.
>
>Besides, words in and of themselves aren't memes. Memes require
>replication. I'm in the artefactual meme camp BTW.
>
>Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Grant Callaghan
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 15:46 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: playing at suicide
> >
> > Hi, Vincent. I think you'll find that in another post I said
>specifically
> >
> > that "A scream is not a meme." Even a cry is not a meme until it is
>used
> > for a specific purpose. That doesn't happen immediately upon removal
>from
> >
> > the womb. But babies do start attempting to manipulate their
>environment
> > very early in life. That's when random behavior becomes encoded as
>memes.
> >
> > There is an article by V.S Ramachandran in Edge emagazine that discusses
> > the
> > way memes are encoded in the brain. He has some pretty good research to
> > back it up.
> >
> > Here is the first paragraph of his article:
> > u
> >
> > "MIRROR NEURONS and imitation learning as the driving force behind "the
> > great leap forward" in human evolution
> >
> > By V.S. Ramachandran
> >
> > The discovery of mirror neurons in the frontal lobes of monkeys, and
>their
> >
> > potential relevance to human brain evolution - which I speculate on in
> > this
> > essay - is the single most important "unreported" (or at least,
> > unpublicized) story of the decade. I predict that mirror neurons will do
> > for
> > psychology what DNA did for biology: they will provide a unifying
> > framework
> > and help explain a host of mental abilities that have hitherto remained
> > mysterious and inaccessible to experiments."
> >
> > Grant
> > >
> > >Hi Grant,
> > >
> > >Show me a substantive difference in pronunciation of 'scream' amongst 3
> > >month old babies around the world and you've got a point. Similarly,
> > show
> > >me a mother who instinctively knows whether the baby needs changing,
> > >holding
> > >or feeding from the sound of the scream alone and you've got a point.
> > >
> > >A baby's scream (as an adult's scream, if say they are scalded, or
> > >surprised) is a simple stimulus-response action, as straighforward as
> > >blinking.
> > >
> > >Vincent
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Grant Callaghan
> > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:57 AM
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: Re: playing at suicide
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:38 , Grant Callaghan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>If the baby didn't know it had the need, it wouldn't be able to
> > > > >>express it.
> > > > >
> > > > >Interesting take on instinctual responses. It certainly is able
> > > > >to 'express' pain with a scream, as you are.
> > > > >
> > > > >But, what do you know?
> > > > >
> > > > >And, what do you need that you screamed?
> > > > >
> > > > >I see a real difference between someone wanting, say, a new
> > > > >iMac, and a baby crying because its hungry.
> > > > >
> > > > >>She knows because the baby communicated the want or need to her.
> > > > >
> > > > >Is this response, crying, really a communication?
> > > > >
> > > > >- Wade
> > > > >
> > > > If you think a cry of pain is not a meme of communication, consider
> > this
> > > > --
> > > > in America we say "ouch" or "ow" when we feel pain. In Japan, they
> > say
> > > > "itai!" or "itai-o!" In China, they say "ai-o" and in the
>Philippines
> >
> > >the
> > > >
> > > > say "apo!" or "apo-da!" In other words, in each culture they found
>a
> > > > different way to express pain. You'd think an instinctual response
> > >would
> > > > elicit a more uniform way of expressing itself.
> > > >
> > > > Grant
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
>Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > >--
> > >The University of Stirling is a university established in Scotland by
> > >charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA. Privileged/Confidential Information may
> > >be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated
> > >in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such
> > >person), you may not disclose, copy or deliver this message to anyone
> > >and any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
> > >prohibited and may be unlawful. In such case, you should destroy this
> > >message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise
> > >immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email
> > >for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other
> > >information in this message that do not relate to the official
> > >business of the University of Stirling shall be understood as neither
> > >given nor endorsed by it.
> > >
> > >
> > >===============================================================
> > >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Grant
> >
> > The means you use shape the ends you get.
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
Grant
The means you use shape the ends you get.
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Jan 14 2002 - 19:39:20 GMT