Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA00898 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:15:10 GMT Message-ID: <000201c171cd$3366e420$4386b2d1@teddace> From: "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D132@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Study shows brain can learn without really trying Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:25:25 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent:
> <Animals do indeed have a kind of culture, a kind of language, a
> kind of
> > intellect, a kind of ego. But it's not what we mean when we use those
> > terms. The proto-language of chimps is incomparable to the
> > self-replicating
> > mental system that binds together human culture. Even among mammals,
> > which possess a general-purpose intelligence, there's no abstract
"world"
> > within which the real one is modeled. There's no memetic environment in
> > which memes could thrive or fail.>
> >
> Well that's your opinion, but I think acknowledging the possibility
> of a pre-cultural, or proto-cultural state in other organisms is important
> in trying to pin down exactly what we mean by human culture.
We can speak of a proto-culture among primates, or even ants, but it's not
the same as human culture. The elements are there, but it hasn't "come to
life," so to speak. It's the seed, not the tree. Not so different from the
proto-capitalism of antiquity as compared to the true capitalism of
modernity. Memes are only really *memes* when they've germinated under the
heat lamp of human consciousness and, after getting buried, begin to work
their magic. Only then are they carriers of culture. If the replicating
behavior or concept is strictly a function of unreflective mentality, then
it's just biology. There's no need to call it a "meme." Just a simple,
organic habit.
Ted
P.S. I'm off tomorrow for Thanksgiving. Won't be able to respond to any
more posts till next weekend.
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