Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA15590 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:09:52 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D103@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:27:45 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 2] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I don't know how many Amish are in the UK, most I suspect would be recent
returnees, rather than long term communities, but I don't know.
The Amish of the TV show were American, hence I found it odd them using the
term 'english' for non-Amish people. I can't recall exactly where they
were, maybe Montana or Illinois. A couple of the kids who were having
drug-related problems moved to an Amish community in Florida where, as with
the examples you mention, they too have accomodated more modern ways to
survive (e.g. they have cars).
Few religious groups are monolithic. [personal anecdote coming up- feel free
to ignore]
I managed to get a Hari Krishna follower very angry yesterday, when he
accosted me on the streets of Glasgow (trying to sell me a CD of mantras and
chants) whilst I was waiting for my wife outside a Borders bookshop. He
stomped off in a huff calling me an arrogant fool (so no lack of insight
despite his beliefs :-)) after I tried to get rid of him by announcing my
militant atheism, and my preference for the Enlightenment, rather his
version of it. As usual with arguments that happen off the cuff, you always
think of the killer thing to say after the event: at one point he accused me
of materialism, and I said what's wrong with materialism, when what I should
of said was "If materialism's so wrong, why are you on the streets of
Glasgow trying to sell CDs of your mantras?"; or when he tried the
relativist beliefs line I should have said 'Does that mean that if I believe
you don't exist, you'll go away?'. He stomped off when I said that the
problem with his preferencing of beliefs over evidence was how to know which
beliefs to preference- why his over Christian, Muslim etc. etc. I did play
the worst possible card in an argument though, when he started talking about
media coverage of Afghanistan ( something along the lines of 'the press say
there's a war in afghanistan, but how do I know....'), and I said don't
satrt talking about the media I've got a PhD in exactly that subject and I'm
a lecturer blah, blah, blah. I know a cardinal sin, but like I say he
caught me on the hop. I was surprised by how quickly he got annoyed, since
I thought the Krishna lot were all about peace and toleration. As he
stomped off I said- getting annoyed like that is really going to persuade
people to your point of view.
In case you're wondering, I haven't yet given in to the temptation to invite
jehovah's witnesses or mormons into the house when they come knocking on the
door- which they do routinely, as there's a commune of some kind done the
end of the road where I live. I can never remember which lot they are,
although they dress quite well (suits and ties). I normally avoid such
confrontations, but this guy came and invaded my space. I started thinking
about that old adage about why you don't see atheists on street corners, or
trying to sell CDs of Bertrand Russell or Richard Dawkins lectures...
Vincent ('the gold medallist of wasting bandwidth')
> ----------
> From: Lawrence DeBivort
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:26 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
>
> In the US, Amish refer to non-Amish as 'yankees'! If an Amish kid opts
> not
> to 'return to Amish-styled life they are not shunned. They remain a part
> of
> the family but are expected to lead separate lives based on yankee
> culture.
> Amish have perfectly cordial and normal relations with yankees, and ask
> only
> that their Amish ways not be opposed or undermined. Nor is it a matter of
> going back to the 17th century: the Amish seek to lead what they consider
> moral, modest and healthy lives, free from consumerist exploitation, and
> their strategy is to build a maintain a strong culture that 'resists' the
> cultural seduction of the yankee world. Generally, it seems to me,
> religious
> fundamentalism is a reaction to this consumerist, fad-driven globalizing
> culture, rather than a primitive desire to 'go back' in time.
>
> A few years ago, My wife and I invited some Amish friends from Ohio to
> visit
> us. In deference to their ways of life, we lit several oil lamps about our
> home and turned off the lights. They arrived, smiled in delight when they
> saw to soft glow of the lamps, said how nice they looked and how it
> reminded
> her of her grandmother's home, and when we asked them what they would like
> to drink, said wine would be fine.
>
> The Amish have made several accomodations: the group in Ohio uses
> computers
> and phones for business, and hires yankees to drive them to work if the
> distance is too far for their horse-and-buggies. These accomodations are
> decided on after considerable reflection and a communal decision-making
> process that allows any two adult memebers of the community to, in
> essence,
> veto a proposal, the decision finalized by their community 'bishop.'
>
> I think the practice you describe is motivated not so much by a desire to
> build church membership, but to ensure that the Amish adult has made a
> conscious choice to live as an Amish person, and that their commitment to
> that life-style will then be the stronger. The Amish are not monolithic;
> perhaps your description applies to UK Amish more than my Ohio friends...
>
> The Amish of Ohio have an interesting memetic structure, and have achieved
> results with it that I find, as a card-carrying member of the consumerist
> culture, quite admirable.
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Vincent Campbell
> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 6:56 AM
> > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Interesting data although one must always remember the correlation
> doesn't
> > imply causality rule. Perhaps the academically less able seek solace in
> > ever greater fundamentalism, and not the other way around?
> >
> > I just recently saw a programme about the Amish rumspringa
> > (spelling?), and
> > wonder how this might fit into prenouncements about fundamentalism's
> > impacts. I'd not heard of this before, so for others who haven't
> either,
> > this is basically the system whereby when an Amish person reaches 16
> they
> > can do what they like- wear modern clothes, drive cars, carry
> > mobile phones,
> > go get drunk etc.- do all the things other teenagers do. They are
> allowed
> > to do this by their parents and are basically given the choice to stay
> > "english" (as they refer to non-Amish people) or join the Amish
> > church (when
> > they must go back to the 17th century ways of that sect). They
> > appear to be
> > able to take as long as they want, and appear to be given pretty much
> free
> > reign to do what they like. The programme claimed about an 85%
> > rate of kids
> > returning to the Amish way of life. I believe not returning
> > results in being
> > 'shunned', and they're not allowed contact wiht their family anymore, so
> > there's one big incentive, but I still think it's a really interesting
> > tactic to try and retain the membership of the church.
> >
> > [As a complete aside, I see that the 'Darwin Awards II' book-
> > very funny it
> > is too- mentions memes]
> >
> > Vincent
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: mcvjones@netscape.net
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 5:36 pm
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> > >
> > > "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hi mcvjones@netscape.net -
> > > >
> > > >>Put another way, these studies investigate how the degree of
> > > environmental
> > > >>openness/closure in the early stages, effects future creativity and
> > > >>academic ability ie our ability to change ie to learn.
> > > >
> > > >And what were their conclusions, if any?
> > > >
> > > hi wade
> > >
> > > In the two american studies there was a signifgant correlation
> between:
> > >
> > > decreasing academic ability and increasing religious fundamentalism,
> and
> > >
> > > religious type (catholic, protestant, jewish) and academic ability and
> > > creativity. The protestants doing better than the catholics and
> > the jewish
> > > group doing better than all (per population much much better).
> > >
> > > Every religion accepts or tolerates within its group a degree of
> change,
> > > (they map our change tolerance landscape). The spectrum starts
> > with islam,
> > > then christianity then Judaism.
> > >
> > > More importantly, removing the religious element, the studies
> > reflect the
> > > extent to which children are 'closed-off' from their very early years.
> A
> > > closed-off child is more receptive to control memes, more receptive to
> > > accepting facts and figures (for ever) rather than thinking, working
> > > things out, making mistakes, evaluating feedback ie learning
> > >
> > >
> > > >The fact that a fundamentalist can tie his own shoelaces (and
> > fly a jet)
> > > >is of concern to the pacific humanist and the intended victims of his
> > > >enmity, but it is also a concern to the ethical secular humanist that
> > > >those memetic voids were filled with hateful dreck in the first
> place-
> > > >thus my claim that religious indoctrination and teaching (and
> > certainly
> > > >fundamentalism of any stripe) is largely an abuse of children.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes an abuse, nearly always, the degree of openness is locked
> > in concrete
> > > from the early years - we can't see this - we go to extremes to
> > defend our
> > > 'values'.
> > >
> > > Just think how often we say to people, 'have an open mind,' we
> > are wasting
> > > out time, they can not change, it is not their fault - their
> environment
> > > closed them off...
> > >
> > > mark
> > >
> > >
> > > >===============================================================
> > > >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> > > >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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