Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA15730 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:03:55 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:59:24 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAMEOACHAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D103@inchna.stir.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Loved the anecdote. I know all too sadly what you mean about killer debate
lines, conceived post partum.
I once had a Moonie (in the early 80s) in a discussion with me suddenly turn
his back on me and proclaim over his shoulder "Get thee gone, Satan", and
another time a Scientologist snarled at me, after I had just helpfully
informed him that Scientology was only a spiritual Ponzi scheme, "Oh, yeah?"
before stomping off. These were in the days when I was trying out various
linguistic belief-changer patterns. We no longer seem to have
Scientologoists and Moonies on our sidewalks, ready to chat. I miss them.
Every now and then someone will knock at my door and explain that the proof
that God exists is that daisies are beautiful. I can't disagree about the
daisies. I do ask why if God exists and created all this nifty stuff, we
don't have eyes in the back of our heads, too, so that we can back up
safely.
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 11:28 AM
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
>
>
> I don't know how many Amish are in the UK, most I suspect would be recent
> returnees, rather than long term communities, but I don't know.
>
> The Amish of the TV show were American, hence I found it odd them
> using the
> term 'english' for non-Amish people. I can't recall exactly where they
> were, maybe Montana or Illinois. A couple of the kids who were having
> drug-related problems moved to an Amish community in Florida
> where, as with
> the examples you mention, they too have accomodated more modern ways to
> survive (e.g. they have cars).
>
> Few religious groups are monolithic. [personal anecdote coming
> up- feel free
> to ignore]
>
> I managed to get a Hari Krishna follower very angry yesterday, when he
> accosted me on the streets of Glasgow (trying to sell me a CD of
> mantras and
> chants) whilst I was waiting for my wife outside a Borders bookshop. He
> stomped off in a huff calling me an arrogant fool (so no lack of insight
> despite his beliefs :-)) after I tried to get rid of him by announcing my
> militant atheism, and my preference for the Enlightenment, rather his
> version of it. As usual with arguments that happen off the cuff,
> you always
> think of the killer thing to say after the event: at one point he
> accused me
> of materialism, and I said what's wrong with materialism, when
> what I should
> of said was "If materialism's so wrong, why are you on the streets of
> Glasgow trying to sell CDs of your mantras?"; or when he tried the
> relativist beliefs line I should have said 'Does that mean that
> if I believe
> you don't exist, you'll go away?'. He stomped off when I said that the
> problem with his preferencing of beliefs over evidence was how to
> know which
> beliefs to preference- why his over Christian, Muslim etc. etc.
> I did play
> the worst possible card in an argument though, when he started
> talking about
> media coverage of Afghanistan ( something along the lines of 'the
> press say
> there's a war in afghanistan, but how do I know....'), and I said don't
> satrt talking about the media I've got a PhD in exactly that
> subject and I'm
> a lecturer blah, blah, blah. I know a cardinal sin, but like I say he
> caught me on the hop. I was surprised by how quickly he got
> annoyed, since
> I thought the Krishna lot were all about peace and toleration. As he
> stomped off I said- getting annoyed like that is really going to persuade
> people to your point of view.
>
> In case you're wondering, I haven't yet given in to the
> temptation to invite
> jehovah's witnesses or mormons into the house when they come
> knocking on the
> door- which they do routinely, as there's a commune of some kind done the
> end of the road where I live. I can never remember which lot they are,
> although they dress quite well (suits and ties). I normally avoid such
> confrontations, but this guy came and invaded my space. I
> started thinking
> about that old adage about why you don't see atheists on street
> corners, or
> trying to sell CDs of Bertrand Russell or Richard Dawkins lectures...
>
> Vincent ('the gold medallist of wasting bandwidth')
>
> > ----------
> > From: Lawrence DeBivort
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:26 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> >
> > In the US, Amish refer to non-Amish as 'yankees'! If an Amish kid opts
> > not
> > to 'return to Amish-styled life they are not shunned. They remain a part
> > of
> > the family but are expected to lead separate lives based on yankee
> > culture.
> > Amish have perfectly cordial and normal relations with yankees, and ask
> > only
> > that their Amish ways not be opposed or undermined. Nor is it
> a matter of
> > going back to the 17th century: the Amish seek to lead what
> they consider
> > moral, modest and healthy lives, free from consumerist exploitation, and
> > their strategy is to build a maintain a strong culture that
> 'resists' the
> > cultural seduction of the yankee world. Generally, it seems to me,
> > religious
> > fundamentalism is a reaction to this consumerist, fad-driven globalizing
> > culture, rather than a primitive desire to 'go back' in time.
> >
> > A few years ago, My wife and I invited some Amish friends from Ohio to
> > visit
> > us. In deference to their ways of life, we lit several oil
> lamps about our
> > home and turned off the lights. They arrived, smiled in delight
> when they
> > saw to soft glow of the lamps, said how nice they looked and how it
> > reminded
> > her of her grandmother's home, and when we asked them what they
> would like
> > to drink, said wine would be fine.
> >
> > The Amish have made several accomodations: the group in Ohio uses
> > computers
> > and phones for business, and hires yankees to drive them to work if the
> > distance is too far for their horse-and-buggies. These accomodations are
> > decided on after considerable reflection and a communal decision-making
> > process that allows any two adult memebers of the community to, in
> > essence,
> > veto a proposal, the decision finalized by their community 'bishop.'
> >
> > I think the practice you describe is motivated not so much by a
> desire to
> > build church membership, but to ensure that the Amish adult has made a
> > conscious choice to live as an Amish person, and that their
> commitment to
> > that life-style will then be the stronger. The Amish are not
> monolithic;
> > perhaps your description applies to UK Amish more than my Ohio
> friends...
> >
> > The Amish of Ohio have an interesting memetic structure, and
> have achieved
> > results with it that I find, as a card-carrying member of the
> consumerist
> > culture, quite admirable.
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Vincent Campbell
> > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 6:56 AM
> > > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Interesting data although one must always remember the correlation
> > doesn't
> > > imply causality rule. Perhaps the academically less able
> seek solace in
> > > ever greater fundamentalism, and not the other way around?
> > >
> > > I just recently saw a programme about the Amish rumspringa
> > > (spelling?), and
> > > wonder how this might fit into prenouncements about fundamentalism's
> > > impacts. I'd not heard of this before, so for others who haven't
> > either,
> > > this is basically the system whereby when an Amish person reaches 16
> > they
> > > can do what they like- wear modern clothes, drive cars, carry
> > > mobile phones,
> > > go get drunk etc.- do all the things other teenagers do. They are
> > allowed
> > > to do this by their parents and are basically given the choice to stay
> > > "english" (as they refer to non-Amish people) or join the Amish
> > > church (when
> > > they must go back to the 17th century ways of that sect). They
> > > appear to be
> > > able to take as long as they want, and appear to be given pretty much
> > free
> > > reign to do what they like. The programme claimed about an 85%
> > > rate of kids
> > > returning to the Amish way of life. I believe not returning
> > > results in being
> > > 'shunned', and they're not allowed contact wiht their family
> anymore, so
> > > there's one big incentive, but I still think it's a really interesting
> > > tactic to try and retain the membership of the church.
> > >
> > > [As a complete aside, I see that the 'Darwin Awards II' book-
> > > very funny it
> > > is too- mentions memes]
> > >
> > > Vincent
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: mcvjones@netscape.net
> > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 5:36 pm
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> > > >
> > > > "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Hi mcvjones@netscape.net -
> > > > >
> > > > >>Put another way, these studies investigate how the degree of
> > > > environmental
> > > > >>openness/closure in the early stages, effects future
> creativity and
> > > > >>academic ability ie our ability to change ie to learn.
> > > > >
> > > > >And what were their conclusions, if any?
> > > > >
> > > > hi wade
> > > >
> > > > In the two american studies there was a signifgant correlation
> > between:
> > > >
> > > > decreasing academic ability and increasing religious fundamentalism,
> > and
> > > >
> > > > religious type (catholic, protestant, jewish) and academic
> ability and
> > > > creativity. The protestants doing better than the catholics and
> > > the jewish
> > > > group doing better than all (per population much much better).
> > > >
> > > > Every religion accepts or tolerates within its group a degree of
> > change,
> > > > (they map our change tolerance landscape). The spectrum starts
> > > with islam,
> > > > then christianity then Judaism.
> > > >
> > > > More importantly, removing the religious element, the studies
> > > reflect the
> > > > extent to which children are 'closed-off' from their very
> early years.
> > A
> > > > closed-off child is more receptive to control memes, more
> receptive to
> > > > accepting facts and figures (for ever) rather than thinking, working
> > > > things out, making mistakes, evaluating feedback ie learning
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >The fact that a fundamentalist can tie his own shoelaces (and
> > > fly a jet)
> > > > >is of concern to the pacific humanist and the intended
> victims of his
> > > > >enmity, but it is also a concern to the ethical secular
> humanist that
> > > > >those memetic voids were filled with hateful dreck in the first
> > place-
> > > > >thus my claim that religious indoctrination and teaching (and
> > > certainly
> > > > >fundamentalism of any stripe) is largely an abuse of children.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes an abuse, nearly always, the degree of openness is locked
> > > in concrete
> > > > from the early years - we can't see this - we go to extremes to
> > > defend our
> > > > 'values'.
> > > >
> > > > Just think how often we say to people, 'have an open mind,' we
> > > are wasting
> > > > out time, they can not change, it is not their fault - their
> > environment
> > > > closed them off...
> > > >
> > > > mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >===============================================================
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> > > >
> > > >
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> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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