Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA15430 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:02:45 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAKENOCHAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D101@inchna.stir.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
In the US, Amish refer to non-Amish as 'yankees'! If an Amish kid opts not
to 'return to Amish-styled life they are not shunned. They remain a part of
the family but are expected to lead separate lives based on yankee culture.
Amish have perfectly cordial and normal relations with yankees, and ask only
that their Amish ways not be opposed or undermined. Nor is it a matter of
going back to the 17th century: the Amish seek to lead what they consider
moral, modest and healthy lives, free from consumerist exploitation, and
their strategy is to build a maintain a strong culture that 'resists' the
cultural seduction of the yankee world. Generally, it seems to me, religious
fundamentalism is a reaction to this consumerist, fad-driven globalizing
culture, rather than a primitive desire to 'go back' in time.
A few years ago, My wife and I invited some Amish friends from Ohio to visit
us. In deference to their ways of life, we lit several oil lamps about our
home and turned off the lights. They arrived, smiled in delight when they
saw to soft glow of the lamps, said how nice they looked and how it reminded
her of her grandmother's home, and when we asked them what they would like
to drink, said wine would be fine.
The Amish have made several accomodations: the group in Ohio uses computers
and phones for business, and hires yankees to drive them to work if the
distance is too far for their horse-and-buggies. These accomodations are
decided on after considerable reflection and a communal decision-making
process that allows any two adult memebers of the community to, in essence,
veto a proposal, the decision finalized by their community 'bishop.'
I think the practice you describe is motivated not so much by a desire to
build church membership, but to ensure that the Amish adult has made a
conscious choice to live as an Amish person, and that their commitment to
that life-style will then be the stronger. The Amish are not monolithic;
perhaps your description applies to UK Amish more than my Ohio friends...
The Amish of Ohio have an interesting memetic structure, and have achieved
results with it that I find, as a card-carrying member of the consumerist
culture, quite admirable.
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 6:56 AM
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Interesting data although one must always remember the correlation doesn't
> imply causality rule. Perhaps the academically less able seek solace in
> ever greater fundamentalism, and not the other way around?
>
> I just recently saw a programme about the Amish rumspringa
> (spelling?), and
> wonder how this might fit into prenouncements about fundamentalism's
> impacts. I'd not heard of this before, so for others who haven't either,
> this is basically the system whereby when an Amish person reaches 16 they
> can do what they like- wear modern clothes, drive cars, carry
> mobile phones,
> go get drunk etc.- do all the things other teenagers do. They are allowed
> to do this by their parents and are basically given the choice to stay
> "english" (as they refer to non-Amish people) or join the Amish
> church (when
> they must go back to the 17th century ways of that sect). They
> appear to be
> able to take as long as they want, and appear to be given pretty much free
> reign to do what they like. The programme claimed about an 85%
> rate of kids
> returning to the Amish way of life. I believe not returning
> results in being
> 'shunned', and they're not allowed contact wiht their family anymore, so
> there's one big incentive, but I still think it's a really interesting
> tactic to try and retain the membership of the church.
>
> [As a complete aside, I see that the 'Darwin Awards II' book-
> very funny it
> is too- mentions memes]
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: mcvjones@netscape.net
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 5:36 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
> >
> > "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >Hi mcvjones@netscape.net -
> > >
> > >>Put another way, these studies investigate how the degree of
> > environmental
> > >>openness/closure in the early stages, effects future creativity and
> > >>academic ability ie our ability to change ie to learn.
> > >
> > >And what were their conclusions, if any?
> > >
> > hi wade
> >
> > In the two american studies there was a signifgant correlation between:
> >
> > decreasing academic ability and increasing religious fundamentalism, and
> >
> > religious type (catholic, protestant, jewish) and academic ability and
> > creativity. The protestants doing better than the catholics and
> the jewish
> > group doing better than all (per population much much better).
> >
> > Every religion accepts or tolerates within its group a degree of change,
> > (they map our change tolerance landscape). The spectrum starts
> with islam,
> > then christianity then Judaism.
> >
> > More importantly, removing the religious element, the studies
> reflect the
> > extent to which children are 'closed-off' from their very early years. A
> > closed-off child is more receptive to control memes, more receptive to
> > accepting facts and figures (for ever) rather than thinking, working
> > things out, making mistakes, evaluating feedback ie learning
> >
> >
> > >The fact that a fundamentalist can tie his own shoelaces (and
> fly a jet)
> > >is of concern to the pacific humanist and the intended victims of his
> > >enmity, but it is also a concern to the ethical secular humanist that
> > >those memetic voids were filled with hateful dreck in the first place-
> > >thus my claim that religious indoctrination and teaching (and
> certainly
> > >fundamentalism of any stripe) is largely an abuse of children.
> > >
> >
> > Yes an abuse, nearly always, the degree of openness is locked
> in concrete
> > from the early years - we can't see this - we go to extremes to
> defend our
> > 'values'.
> >
> > Just think how often we say to people, 'have an open mind,' we
> are wasting
> > out time, they can not change, it is not their fault - their environment
> > closed them off...
> >
> > mark
> >
> >
> > >===============================================================
> > >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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