Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA15301 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:26:43 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D101@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day... Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:55:53 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi,
Interesting data although one must always remember the correlation doesn't
imply causality rule. Perhaps the academically less able seek solace in
ever greater fundamentalism, and not the other way around?
I just recently saw a programme about the Amish rumspringa (spelling?), and
wonder how this might fit into prenouncements about fundamentalism's
impacts. I'd not heard of this before, so for others who haven't either,
this is basically the system whereby when an Amish person reaches 16 they
can do what they like- wear modern clothes, drive cars, carry mobile phones,
go get drunk etc.- do all the things other teenagers do. They are allowed
to do this by their parents and are basically given the choice to stay
"english" (as they refer to non-Amish people) or join the Amish church (when
they must go back to the 17th century ways of that sect). They appear to be
able to take as long as they want, and appear to be given pretty much free
reign to do what they like. The programme claimed about an 85% rate of kids
returning to the Amish way of life. I believe not returning results in being
'shunned', and they're not allowed contact wiht their family anymore, so
there's one big incentive, but I still think it's a really interesting
tactic to try and retain the membership of the church.
[As a complete aside, I see that the 'Darwin Awards II' book- very funny it
is too- mentions memes]
Vincent
> ----------
> From: mcvjones@netscape.net
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 5:36 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Wade's last week's phrase of the day...
>
> "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> >Hi mcvjones@netscape.net -
> >
> >>Put another way, these studies investigate how the degree of
> environmental
> >>openness/closure in the early stages, effects future creativity and
> >>academic ability ie our ability to change ie to learn.
> >
> >And what were their conclusions, if any?
> >
> hi wade
>
> In the two american studies there was a signifgant correlation between:
>
> decreasing academic ability and increasing religious fundamentalism, and
>
> religious type (catholic, protestant, jewish) and academic ability and
> creativity. The protestants doing better than the catholics and the jewish
> group doing better than all (per population much much better).
>
> Every religion accepts or tolerates within its group a degree of change,
> (they map our change tolerance landscape). The spectrum starts with islam,
> then christianity then Judaism.
>
> More importantly, removing the religious element, the studies reflect the
> extent to which children are 'closed-off' from their very early years. A
> closed-off child is more receptive to control memes, more receptive to
> accepting facts and figures (for ever) rather than thinking, working
> things out, making mistakes, evaluating feedback ie learning
>
>
> >The fact that a fundamentalist can tie his own shoelaces (and fly a jet)
> >is of concern to the pacific humanist and the intended victims of his
> >enmity, but it is also a concern to the ethical secular humanist that
> >those memetic voids were filled with hateful dreck in the first place-
> >thus my claim that religious indoctrination and teaching (and certainly
> >fundamentalism of any stripe) is largely an abuse of children.
> >
>
> Yes an abuse, nearly always, the degree of openness is locked in concrete
> from the early years - we can't see this - we go to extremes to defend our
> 'values'.
>
> Just think how often we say to people, 'have an open mind,' we are wasting
> out time, they can not change, it is not their fault - their environment
> closed them off...
>
> mark
>
>
> >===============================================================
> >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
>
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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>
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