Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA00299 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:27:53 +0100 From: Philip Jonkers <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: rugth1.phys.rug.nl: www-data set sender to jonkers@localhost using -f To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Memes inside brain Message-ID: <1002212599.3bbc8cf7cd792@rugth1.phys.rug.nl> Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:23:19 +0200 (CEST) References: <200110021509.KAA02195@snipe.biotech.ufl.org> In-Reply-To: <200110021509.KAA02195@snipe.biotech.ufl.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 129.125.13.3 Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Derek:
> you ask me where else are memes stored if not in brains? What makes you
> think
> that memes _are_ stored in brains? Memes aren't stored - that's why
> memetics
> has struggled to make the same scientific impact as, say, genetics.
> Memetics
> doesn't lack good theoreticians - Cavalli-Sforza, Richerson, Feldman,
> Laland etc
> but it does lack the element of tangibility that genetics has.
>
> You gave me a handful of sentences, and then say that whwn I read them,
> they
> are 'somewhere in my head'. Really? What neural correlate can you
> point to
> that corresponds to any of those sentences? clearly something must be
> going on in my head - but whatever it is, it certainly isn't storage of
> sentences.
Most likely not literally indeed, memes may be stored in some other more
graphical form I believe. Also scripture is a relatively new human development,
the human brain is still ill-equiped for remembering complete sentences and
still mostly thinks in pictures. However, how do you remember quotations or
saying demanding exact replication?
Sentences may not be flashing by visually, audible memory perhaps?
Anyway you see it, they are still inside your brain, albeit stored
unconventionally with respect to the most convenient non-human storage media.
Language is a means to communicate thoughts. Memes in humans correspond to or
originated as thoughts, therefore memes are (at least partially) stored and
processed in the brain. In fact, the human invention of language facilitated
communication between other members of the species but also with oneself
(introspection, self-reflection etc., leading to (self-)consciousness?).
When you wonder, you think either in terms of language or visual images
possibly with imagined sound. Again these are memes.
When someone is trying to get his/her
point across to you, you try to conjure up a mental image with or without sound.
The products of language, images, they are all memes and they interact with
eachother and are stored inside the brain. Memes saw an explosive growth with
the birth of language.
I'm thinking about mathematics (or any other consistent system of thought
for that matter). When one attempts a mathematical deduction, one applies the
mathematical rules inside his brain (ideally) to solve the problem at hand.
Surely, the rules, which are memes, must be inside the mathematician's
brain in order to warrant a successful solution to the problem without
consulting some master.
Therefore memes, perhaps in disguise, must be housed in the brain.
Philip.
> You ask me 'if memes have nothing to do with your brain....
> ' but I didn't say that memes ahve nothing to do with the brain.
> Clearly a
> brainless animal would have to be acultural, and culture only exists
> in
> fairly brainy animals. But that doesn't mean that culture is a mental
> phenomenon.
>
> As to 'what or who lets [memes] survive in the population' there is no
> 'thing'
> letting memes survive. they survive because they provide some kind of
>
> advantage to the organism exhibiting them, or of course, because they
> tend
> to be transmitted well even if deleterious to the organism (hence
> 'selfish memes').
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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