Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA00466 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:11:04 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745DE9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:07:05 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
If it has legs as an explanatory concept, and if it can then be
operationally used to deliberately construct persuasive communications, then
I think it should be regulated and, possibly banned in areas like
advertising. There'd be nothing worse than the likes of Coca Cola utilising
memetic advertising, for example, because we might be largely lacking
immunity to it.
However, these are huge ifs, that I don't really see as plausible despite
the growth in so-called viral marketing and memetic engineering efforts.
Such things are major, major, major red herrings, and a big deep hole in the
ground for people to throw their money into.
(Why? Because a) we can't even agree on what a meme is, let alone whether
they actually exist or not, so how can anyone start "using" them; and b)
there are entire industries engaged in persuasive communication already who,
despite the money paid to them by clients, have absolutely no way of
predetermining the effectiveness of their efforts, and when they are
successful its largely nothing to do with them, and everything to do with
the attitudes of those they're trying to persuade).
How's that for a forthright answer? (I'm sorry, I'm in a bit of bad mood as
I spent hours last night writing a lecture for today, and half the class
didn't turn up, and those that did were hung-over from a post assignment
submission drinking session).
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Lawrence DeBivort
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 3:35 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
>
> One would think that with their ability to generate knowledge, academic
> folks would have a leg up in influencing policy. Generally, though, to
> influence policy one has to be engaged in the institutions and processes
> in
> which policy is generated, and it seems that this where many academics
> balk,
> preferring the purer atmosphere of the campus. Noted academics who
> ventured
> with great success into the policy world, such a Salk and Sagan, can
> become
> the objects of sniping by colleagues who remain on campus. The propensity
> for inter-collegial sniping that seems, to me, to mark academia and is
> defended as part of the process of finding truth, does not translate well
> into the world of policy formulation. This is a loss for everyone, IMO.
>
> A question to my fellow list-members here....
>
> What would you recommend regarding the policy implications of memetics, if
> any?
>
> - Lawrence
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 9:54 AM
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
>
>
> Academics invariably have little or no social status when it comes to
> policy
> formation, certainly not in cultural terms. As much as some of my
> colleagues like to think otherwise, we are extremely inconsequential in
> terms of public attitudes, which evolve almost in complete isolation from
> the concerns of most academics. To what extent it's our fault is another
> matter, but I don't see it as the only factor in this ineffectiveness.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Lawrence DeBivort
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:52 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "TJ Olney" <market@cc.wwu.edu>
> > > If you think "memetic engineering" doesn't happen, you are sadly
> > mistaken.
> > > It is the heart of politics and the soul of commerce. The research
> > budgets
> > > of companies, advertising agencies, and public relations firms are
> > enormous.
> > > I'd bet there are even professionals in all three fields lurking in
> the
> > > membership of this list. Why? Because, science or not, there are
> > profoundly
> > > practical implications for how to tailor campaigns of any kind to
> spread
> > > points of view and sell products.
> >
> > In further support of your comments, I'd add that a scientific
> > understanding
> > of memetics can help humanity to avoid the kind of misuse practiced by
> > propagandists. The dismissal of memetics by social commentators serves
> to
> > make
> > it a more powerful tool in the hands of miscreants (in my meme-ridden
> > opinion).
> >
> > --J. R.
> >
> > LdB:
> > I only wish this were true, that academic understanding can rein in
> abuse.
> > We already know, academically, how manipulative comsumerism is on both
> > kids
> > and adults, yet nothing is done, at least in the US, to put a damper on
> > it.
> > Credit card debt is at an all time high, shopping is promoyed as a
> > recreation, and personal savings and investment, in the US, are among
> the
> > lowest per capita in the industrialized world.
> >
> > Fortunately, some (smallish) portion of the teen population seem to be
> > renouncing consumerism, but it is with no thanks to the academics. It
> is,
> > I
> > beleive based on anecdotal evidence, because they sense the inherent
> > unhealthiness of a consumerist orientation.
> >
> > - Lawrence
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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