RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science

From: Vincent Campbell (v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk)
Date: Wed Apr 25 2001 - 11:58:02 BST

  • Next message: Vincent Campbell: "RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science"

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    From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
    To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
    Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:58:02 +0100
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    Making the Earth move out of orbit?

    You've been watching either 'The Day the Earth Caught Fire' or 'When Worlds
    Collide'. Or maybe even Flash Gordon re-runs.

    Vincent

    > ----------
    > From: Trupeljak Ozren
    > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:49 am
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: The Status of Memetics as a Science
    >
    >
    > --- Scott Chase <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > > >From: Trupeljak Ozren <ozren_trupeljak@yahoo.com>
    > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > >Subject: Re: The Status of Memetics as a Science
    > > >Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT)
    > > >
    > > >If we start with the assumption that memes have been with us for
    > > some
    > > >time; that they follow the principles of evolutionary selection;
    > > that
    > > >they are the reason behind our physical dominance on this planet;
    > > >THEN
    > > >it would follow that releasing the knowledge about the specific
    > > >mechanisms of their existence (knowledge of meme-engineering) could
    > > >only lead to a greater diversity; and thus stronger, more robust
    > > >"meme-system" (eco-system of the memes) for the whole of their
    > > "living
    > > >space".
    > > >
    > > Humans are physically dominant on this planet? Tell that to the
    > > insects and
    > > other arthropods. For every arrogant human wearing anhtropocentric
    > > lenses
    > > there are those crafty little microbes waiting in the shadows looking
    > > for an
    > > opportune time to pounce. Simplicity reigns.
    >
    > They are still unable to unleash enough energy to move our planet out
    > of the orbit, which we are (I would argue that one can measure
    > dominance over the physical world in simple terms of exactly how much
    > energy can you unleash); the other point being that neither microbes
    > nor insects have yet been able to stop us from doing anything that we
    > as a species wanted to do. They still exist as a possible threat to our
    > dominance, yes.
    >
    > > >
    > > >Why do I believe that they (memes) are the reason behind our
    > > dominance?
    > > >By definition, all transmited knowledge exhibits memetic behavior;
    > > and
    > > >our physical dominance is the result of our knowledge of theory and
    > > >application for laws of nature. The ideas standing behind the rise
    > > of
    > > >scientific thought could very easily be perceived as being memes.
    > > >
    > > So "memes" have pushed us up the great ladder?
    >
    > Well, I haven't said that, but you might consider that idea, too. I was
    > talking that ideas behind scientific method showed meme-like behavior.
    >
    > > >
    > > >Why would the release of knowledge of "meme-engineering" lead to
    > > >greater diversity of existant memes? Well, from the simple fact that
    > > >you would have many more nodes of replication that would mutate
    > > memes
    > > >on purpose, not just by accident or "flashes of inspiration", and
    > > with
    > > >far more knowledge of what the results might be.
    > > >
    > > >Why would this greater diversity of memes bring any good to us,
    > > >humanity? Well, here I can only go by analogy with biology, in which
    > > >the most complex systems exhibit surprising capabilities of survival
    > > >and adaptation.
    > > >
    > > Ever hear of antibiotic resistance? The simpleton microbes are
    > > putting up a
    > > good fight.
    >
    > Exactly. We are showering them with huge quantities of toxic
    > substances, and are accelerating their evolution (in the sphere of
    > immunity to antibiotics) very very much. But at the same time; it seems
    > as if we are still one step ahead of them, and will be as long as our
    > computational capabilities exceed the requirements needed to find new
    > versions of antibiotics. Without the complexity of todays computers, we
    > would be in big trouble very fast. :)
    >
    > > >In a way, by being exposed to more, and better crafted,
    > > >memes, we can raise the immunity to truly virulent ones just by
    > > >constant exposure. Fanaticism of any kind might become a rather
    > > small
    > > >and isolated phenomenon, unlike today...that might be good. :)
    > > >
    > > >again, I might be discovering warm water. But I was provoked by the
    > > >discussion on ethics of releasing the knowledge of how the human
    > > mind
    > > >is manipulated to the general public. If we extoll the principles of
    > > >evoultion to be the elegant truth behind our existence, why should
    > > we
    > > >not accept them as our ethical system, too?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > Hume's "is versus ought" distinction or Moore's naturalistic fallacy
    > > perhaps?
    >
    > I am not knowledgable of these; can you elaborate?
    >
    > =====
    > There are very few man - and they are exceptions - who are able to think
    > and feel beyond the present moment.
    >
    > Carl von Clausewitz
    >
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    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

    ===============================================================
    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit



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